Time for All Ireland Soccer?

[Jim]

I told you before I've stood for the national anthem, stood for the union jack. What I don't do is stand for the Ulster Banner when the flag should be inclusive, since I am a citizen of NI, and it is the NI national team. I don't have a welling up of hatred about it, I dont feel anything about it I'm emotionless, that is not a good atmosphere if catholics were to start going to NI matches.

Why are you so opposed to a new flag and anthem? Scotland dont have a problem with doing their own thing.

And er, no, I do support NI and have made that clear.

[Wasp]

Earl I have pesonnally met Pat Jennings, he is a real nice bloke. In his younger days he along with his mates were often joined by a few cops on the beat to have a quick game of footie. One of these officers who sadly died a while back had a room in house dedicated mainly to Jennings along with others.

I used to hang around with his nephew and the few times I met him he always told the stories about him scoring past big Pat. This same officer was allowed to do a patrol on certain days that passed the chapel so that he could go in and attend mass. This offer was not given to Protestant offers being allowed to attend church.

But you never heard of such things because it didn't fit in with the republican aganda, like imagine it, a Catholic policeman who was speciffically allowed to patrol in an area where he could pop into mass. Now that is accomodation and as the officer said big Pat and co used to say we will come along with you at the end of the game.

If there was only one international team with players from both countries and it was all British (the opposite of Ireland rugby) then I would fully agree with things having to be looked at such as the flag and anthem etc. But this isn't the case and with two teams to suit everyone why the fuck should N.I change its flag or anthem because people are offended and these same people can support a team with a flag and anthem that suits them.

[Wasp]

Jim you are saying that you are a N.I citizen and it is the country of your birth, I fully agree with you here. But would I be right in saying that many many time you say Ireland is the country of your birth etc. If that is how you see it then why not just support Ireland?

[Jim]

You would be right in saying I see Ireland as the country of my birth but realistically I was born in NI and I pay my taxes (dont earn enough in england) to the NI state and are kept in the NI state. I would support Ireland but there is no Ireland team, only two partitionist teams. Its my opinion that the FAI should dissolve into the IFA anyway if it did happen.

But this isn't the case and with two teams to suit everyone why the fuck should N.I change its flag or anthem because people are offended and these same people can support a team with a flag and anthem that suits them.

Because those people have every right to be represented in a manner that suits them as you do.

[Bilk]

jim said:

I told you before I've stood for the national anthem, stood for the union jack. What I don't do is stand for the Ulster Banner when the flag should be inclusive, since I am a citizen of NI, and it is the NI national team. I don't have a welling up of hatred about it, I dont feel anything about it I'm emotionless, that is not a good atmosphere if catholics were to start going to NI matches.

Why are you so opposed to a new flag and anthem? Scotland dont have a problem with doing their own thing.



And er, no, I do support NI and have made that clear.

I'm not, and I think I have made that quite clear in what I have said about flags and how I see them. I don't care if the Northern Ireland flag contains a glentoran cockerel, no wait a minit that going too far, I do. I see it as a piece of cloth with designs on it. you see past that to what it stands for, and you don't like it. In otherwords you see it as stopping you from being more Irish than you already are. You screamed why don't we have a flag of our own like the Scots and Welsh, well we do but you don't like it.
The next point I would like to make on the subject is this, and it will be my last. The present government could not possibly come up with a new flag this side of the next millenia, so forget it.

[Jim]

I see it as something very important so we will differ from the very start when it comes to flags. I see that it stands for one community, not both, in a state that has two communities. Its not about Irishness or Britishness, if you want, you can call it "Northern Irishness", something to for once take pride in with this state. You can't get past the idea of me hating the flag some how, I dislike it, I don't hate it, I don't hate anything actually, hate is a very strong word. You don't even understand the point of national teams nevermind flags.

We don't have a flag of our own, the Ulster banner has no official use and the IFA are not right in using it, but I suppose keeping it nice and orange is their plan. The only flag we have is the Union Jack, and thats not good enough. So use that if you must.

It may be your last point (will it really be?) but by no means are you correct, a new flag will be an important issue in times to come even if its implimented by the British government, if this state is to survive for more than the next 20 years. If you can't accept my community and our grieviances with flags then it probably wont.

[Wasp]

And Jim if you can't accept our community and its grievances about having our flag being classed as offensive etc etc then it probably won't last either.

Jim you have constantly said about being born in Ireland etc so maybe your attempts here could be seen as nothing more than goading or shit stirring. I AM NOT accusing you of that but why have you done what only seems as a turnaround. The republics team is by far the closest to your aspirations, it has your flag and anthem. The Ulster flag and GSTQ according to you does not represent you in anyway, fair enough well then why not support the team that does??

You can't go on about you being born in Ireland and it is Ireland that you belong to, their flag and anthem represents you etc and then turn round and say you were born in N.I and you are a citizen of the country you were born in as in N.I.

Jim I know plenty of Catholics who support N.I,one of whom has Ulster till I die tatooed across his shoulders. Some of these same Catholics at least would fall into the nationalist bracket, they would like to see a U.I someday and some of them don't. But the fact remains they can goto the matches and sing their heart out for their team with no feelings of being excluded or anything like it.

It is about time that republicans realized that there are two teams on this island and they are free to support the team of their choice instead of complaining about a team from a country that they hardly recognize etc.

[Bilk]

jim said:

I see it as something very important so we will differ from the very start when it comes to flags. I see that it stands for one community, not both, in a state that has two communities. Its not about Irishness or Britishness, if you want, you can call it "Northern Irishness", something to for once take pride in with this state. You can't get past the idea of me hating the flag some how, I dislike it, I don't hate it, I don't hate anything actually, hate is a very strong word. You don't even understand the point of national teams nevermind flags.

We don't have a flag of our own, the Ulster banner has no official use and the IFA are not right in using it, but I suppose keeping it nice and orange is their plan. The only flag we have is the Union Jack, and thats not good enough. So use that if you must.

It may be your last point (will it really be?) but by no means are you correct, a new flag will be an important issue in times to come even if its implimented by the British government, if this state is to survive for more than the next 20 years. If you can't accept my community and our grieviances with flags then it probably wont.

I can't accept your community's paranoia with the past, they still harp on about the famine ffs, like it only happened to your community. The unionist community were immune to the famine apparently. We were given our little part of Ireland and tried to move on, the majority of your community as you call them never have. So I don't see any of the things you are talking about making a blind bit of difference to that attitude.
As for the flag, Gerry and the boys will want a picture of collins or some other Republican hero on it, and the unionists will object and they will fight about it for the next 50 years so forget it.

[Jim]

wasp said:

And Jim if you can't accept our community and its grievances about having our flag being classed as offensive etc etc then it probably won't last either.

Jim you have constantly said about being born in Ireland etc so maybe your attempts here could be seen as nothing more than goading or shit stirring. I AM NOT accusing you of that but why have you done what only seems as a turnaround. The republics team is by far the closest to your aspirations, it has your flag and anthem. The Ulster flag and GSTQ according to you does not represent you in anyway, fair enough well then why not support the team that does??

You can't go on about you being born in Ireland and it is Ireland that you belong to, their flag and anthem represents you etc and then turn round and say you were born in N.I and you are a citizen of the country you were born in as in N.I.

Jim I know plenty of Catholics who support N.I,one of whom has Ulster till I die tatooed across his shoulders. Some of these same Catholics at least would fall into the nationalist bracket, they would like to see a U.I someday and some of them don't. But the fact remains they can goto the matches and sing their heart out for their team with no feelings of being excluded or anything like it.

It is about time that republicans realized that there are two teams on this island and they are free to support the team of their choice instead of complaining about a team from a country that they hardly recognize etc.

Here, hold on a minute. Lets be very honest, you have made no secret of holding contempt at my flag and even refuse to support the irish rugby team over it. As a citizen of NI I have a right to be represented by that team, with a flag that I can get behind and support, that wontgreat at uneasy atmosphere especially at this new place. I'm not goading and I'm not shit stirring I'm giving my honest opinion on what people think about the ulster banner, whats worse is its a flag of the old stormont regime that absolutely despised my community and tried to keep them out for as long as possible, that is why we don't like it, a reminder of a bad past. Why the jesus can you not see that?

I said I'm from Ireland, that doesn't mean I can't say I'm from NI, NI is still on the island of Ireland, and you know fine rightly Ireland as political unit doesn't exist, I've never claimed it does either.

I know plenty of nationalists that support NI - I AM ONE. It doesnt mean I'm going to accept everything about it I still have opinions on what I think should be changed. If you see that as pandering to nationalists (as Harry called it) then thats you and your communities opinion on the matter, it still doesnt make my request less legitimate.

Its about time Unionists realised that they can't control everything and pretend to block us out when they don't like it. Its a laugh hearing all this shite, republicans do this, republicans do that, republicans need to realise this, when you can't even accept a flag that would represent everyone.

[Jim]

bilk said:

jim said:

I see it as something very important so we will differ from the very start when it comes to flags. I see that it stands for one community, not both, in a state that has two communities. Its not about Irishness or Britishness, if you want, you can call it "Northern Irishness", something to for once take pride in with this state. You can't get past the idea of me hating the flag some how, I dislike it, I don't hate it, I don't hate anything actually, hate is a very strong word. You don't even understand the point of national teams nevermind flags.

We don't have a flag of our own, the Ulster banner has no official use and the IFA are not right in using it, but I suppose keeping it nice and orange is their plan. The only flag we have is the Union Jack, and thats not good enough. So use that if you must.

It may be your last point (will it really be?) but by no means are you correct, a new flag will be an important issue in times to come even if its implimented by the British government, if this state is to survive for more than the next 20 years. If you can't accept my community and our grieviances with flags then it probably wont.

I can't accept your community's paranoia with the past, they still harp on about the famine ffs, like it only happened to your community. The unionist community were immune to the famine apparently. We were given our little part of Ireland and tried to move on, the majority of your community as you call them never have. So I don't see any of the things you are talking about making a blind bit of difference to that attitude.
As for the flag, Gerry and the boys will want a picture of collins or some other Republican hero on it, and the unionists will object and they will fight about it for the next 50 years so forget it.

I don't think I've ever said anything about the famine on these boards so that doesn't apply to me. I think the most I've done on the famine, ever, was a play in P.7 when I was 11.

Why are you assuming things? Why would I want a picture of Collins on a flag are you having a laugh? I would actually propose something like the Ulster Rugby and Ulster Province (ulster til I die eh?) flag..

But even I can see some unionists wouldnt like it.. so..


So why not?
Its good enough for Belfast City Council to use it as a counterpart to the Tricolour on St Patricks day. Its good enough for the peelers to use, its good enough to actually have some historic importance since it makes up Ireland on the Union Jack..

So what do you say ?

[earl]

bilk said:

jim said:

I see it as something very important so we will differ from the very start when it comes to flags. I see that it stands for one community, not both, in a state that has two communities. Its not about Irishness or Britishness, if you want, you can call it "Northern Irishness", something to for once take pride in with this state. You can't get past the idea of me hating the flag some how, I dislike it, I don't hate it, I don't hate anything actually, hate is a very strong word. You don't even understand the point of national teams nevermind flags.

We don't have a flag of our own, the Ulster banner has no official use and the IFA are not right in using it, but I suppose keeping it nice and orange is their plan. The only flag we have is the Union Jack, and thats not good enough. So use that if you must.

It may be your last point (will it really be?) but by no means are you correct, a new flag will be an important issue in times to come even if its implimented by the British government, if this state is to survive for more than the next 20 years. If you can't accept my community and our grieviances with flags then it probably wont.

I can't accept your community's paranoia with the past, they still harp on about the famine ffs, like it only happened to your community. The unionist community were immune to the famine apparently. We were given our little part of Ireland and tried to move on, the majority of your community as you call them never have. So I don't see any of the things you are talking about making a blind bit of difference to that attitude.
As for the flag, Gerry and the boys will want a picture of collins or some other Republican hero on it, and the unionists will object and they will fight about it for the next 50 years so forget it.

Oh yeah Bilk, sure the Unionist community never harps on about the past. What year was that Protestant massacre again? 16-something? And it's still told like it will happen tomorrow if the border goes. Catch yerself on big lad, you're embarrassing yourself.

[earl]

AS I've previously stated, I'm not too pushed about an all-Ireland team. Mainly because the FAI will have a good chance of grabbing any budding young Nordies anyway and FIFA and UEFA will do sweet 'FA' about it. And under the GFA, they have every right to play for us if they want to.

[Harry]

Jim you're even resorting to now calling the team Orange!!! WTF

What do you want Jim?? Do you want an 'all ireland' team, do you want a UI?? If we were to change the flag, anthem etc would you suddenly become Northern Irish and be happy with oit?? Would you lose the long term aims of Irish Unity?? If you and the majority of your community would, i'd be happy to change the flag, anthem in a second.

However i doubt that would be the case so it would be merely another step in the right direction towards a UI via the backdoor.

Its simple. You have a team to support who bear your flag and sing your anthem. You are free to choose. Like players are free to choose which country they pledge their loyalty to as Earl keeps talking about it under the GFA. I can accept this also. What i can't accept is someone wanting it all.

[Bilk]

Apr 10, 2008 23:10:49 GMT earl said:

bilk said:

I can't accept your community's paranoia with the past, they still harp on about the famine ffs, like it only happened to your community. The unionist community were immune to the famine apparently. We were given our little part of Ireland and tried to move on, the majority of your community as you call them never have. So I don't see any of the things you are talking about making a blind bit of difference to that attitude.
As for the flag, Gerry and the boys will want a picture of collins or some other Republican hero on it, and the unionists will object and they will fight about it for the next 50 years so forget it.

Oh yeah Bilk, sure the Unionist community never harps on about the past. What year was that Protestant massacre again? 16-something? And it's still told like it will happen tomorrow if the border goes. Catch yerself on big lad, you're embarrassing yourself.

I, and I can assure you the vast majority of the unionist community, have no idea what you are talking about here mate. Any that do will be the ones on here who have studied it so they can be ready for an argument on places like this. But mention the famine to just about any nationalist in the street and he will recite it chapter and verse(well the republican version). The only thing I know that happened in 16 somethig was the Battle of the Boyne. The only reason I know that is that it's there every 12th, would be hard not to know it. And I'm not in the slightest embarrased, the reble songs (not the boys behind the wire ones of today) are sung about guys and events that happened centuries ago. I can tell you that (apart from the Battle of the Boyne)the vast majority of prods know very little of there own history, and therefore talk little about it. Our enimies are of today, what your ancetors did to my ancestors, or the other way round, is something I and they know little or nothing about.

[Bilk]

Apr 10, 2008 22:19:41 GMT Jim said:

bilk said:

I can't accept your community's paranoia with the past, they still harp on about the famine ffs, like it only happened to your community. The unionist community were immune to the famine apparently. We were given our little part of Ireland and tried to move on, the majority of your community as you call them never have. So I don't see any of the things you are talking about making a blind bit of difference to that attitude.
As for the flag, Gerry and the boys will want a picture of collins or some other Republican hero on it, and the unionists will object and they will fight about it for the next 50 years so forget it.

I don't think I've ever said anything about the famine on these boards so that doesn't apply to me. I think the most I've done on the famine, ever, was a play in P.7 when I was 11.

Why are you assuming things? Why would I want a picture of Collins on a flag are you having a laugh? I would actually propose something like the Ulster Rugby and Ulster Province (ulster til I die eh?) flag..

But even I can see some unionists wouldnt like it.. so..


So why not?
Its good enough for Belfast City Council to use it as a counterpart to the Tricolour on St Patricks day. Its good enough for the peelers to use, its good enough to actually have some historic importance since it makes up Ireland on the Union Jack..

So what do you say ?

Did I refer to you jim, in the bit about the famine?. And I am very sure that at some stage we have got around to the famine, on one or other of the boards. I don't know whether you said anything then or not. I was talking about your community and their living in the past. almost every Irish man or woman wherever in the world , no matter how far back their tentative links with Ireland go, can tell you the history of Ireland, again (the republican version).