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Post by Wasp on Apr 21, 2008 11:35:51 GMT
Wow talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Setanta when it comes to the murder of kids and babies and unborn babies in sectarian outrages YOU wouldn't condemn it nor would you condemn the murder of innocent bystanders who BTW all to often were the ira targets. That has been proved time and time again for years yet you get at me.
Nice try to get out of what we are tsalking about and to difflect from the issue at hand. Just you brush over the sherr and utter idiotic, provocative and hypocritical stance of sinn fein by blaming everyone else. Your attempt at doing so is simply pathetic.
Did our politicians agree to you (sf) searching the net to see if you were offended and did they agree with the construction of ira memorials while war memorials etc are to be scorned at?
Your partys hypocricy stinks of blatant lies and double standards, but I suppose they have had plenty of practice in there efforts right here in N.Ireland. IMHO part of the reason for the ceasefire was because loyalists started hitting the right targets.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 21, 2008 11:41:36 GMT
Just to remind you this is some of what I worte.
As much as I don't want anyone to be injured never mind killed, I don't want true loyalists to hand over one single bullet at the moment, the loyalist thugs who bully and abuse their own community can fuck off. Those who are dedicated to their cause should not hand over a single bullet as I said, if they had the political clout that took them into government then that would change the whole situation.
But as things stand not a bullet.
You know yourself that I have welcomed various moves by sinn fein, you know I condemned all terrorist violence but I did say if it were provos and their ilk being taken out then I would sympathize.
While this is an ongoing process of trying to be offended, denying my cluture and way of life, having problems with anything Protestant and Unionist, having blatant double standards concerning almost everything, while there is a threat from dissidents etc I would advise all true loyalists to keep their weapons, infact if they can buy more as it is better to be prepared and not needed than to be needed and not prepared.
Hope this clears up any more of the constant assumptions with my sectarian hatred etc.
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Apr 21, 2008 16:48:07 GMT
WASP, the similarities in what you are saying and what Ian Paisley said when he led his men up the hill are astounding!!! You're calling for the good fight, where miraculously no innocents will be hurt!Some of the Loyalist Paras are good but some are bad and you'll support the good ones when they do good things in "Ulsters" name and damn the bad ones to hell when they do bad things even though they're following the same logic as the good ones and think they're doing it in "Ulsters" name. Just like Ian Paisley. But me being shot dead or blown up and killed for being a member of a political party in 2008 is just fine with you. Keep talking WASP. As for this. They agreed that we had a political mandate and were democratically entitled to represent our electorate and to use the UK's laws agencies and ministries to implement our agenda. That's what we're doing. The political challenge is there for Unionisms elected reps and they've been found wanting and you're lashing out at us instead of questioning them on that they're doing about it. If David Ervine and a lot more like him were still around to represent their communities then things would be different but while you average Joe Unionist people still fall for the scare tactics of the self serving big house Unionist parties like the DUP/UUP and now the TUV, not much will change. You get what you vote for and deserve what you get as representation. Ironic that yo have ago at wasp considering you use practulity the same argument when talking about the PIRA. As for decommissoning David Ervine never called for decommissoning from the PIRA, infact he always said the whole isseue was a red herring at that the guns should be left to rust in peace, so just because the PIRA decommissoned some weapons don't think for a second that loyalist will do the same, the PIRA decommissoned some weapons because it suited them but if you really want to whine about decomissoning save it for the DUP and the UUP since it was they that called for decommissoning in the first place |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 21, 2008 21:04:49 GMT
Oh come on setanta not even I am that bad.  Now now setanta I think you are twisting everything here. First of all I wouldn't want innocent people targeted because of their religion or anything else, unlike the ira whom you support and view as heroes and they DID target innocent people many many times. You see theres the difference, those who are targeting us should be targets themselves. Those who claim to be doing anything for Ulster such as the bad ones you referred to do nothing for Ulster or the loyalist cause. Terrorizing their own community, bullying there own or targeting people because of their religion is not fighting for Ulster. so you trying to put all loyalists in the one basket is hypocritical, maybe you should put all republicans in one basket including the dissidents. These dissidents are using the same logic you used along with your sf/ira friends etc. Secondly I want no-one shot or injured in anyway but whille there is a threat and while perhaps in the future decommisioning could be used as a bargaining token then why the hell should they hand over anything. I think my latter reason was exactly what sinn fein/ira done. Not once did I say that or anything like it. Apart from that me or those like me that were just members of the PUL community nevermind belonging to a political party were being targeted for over 30 years and that was just fine with you, which included friends and relations of mine. Keep talking Setanta. Bollocks mate, sf main agenda is to provoke and intimidate and antagonize the Unionist community. I agree though that they are not doing what is needed in tackling sinn feins hypocritical idiotic stance. But instead of looking at how our politicans are dealing with it, why not look at your own politicans and exactly what they are doing which has been pointed out to you many times. . Your final comment about deserving what you get because of who you voted for easily applies then to those who voted sinn fein during the troubles and were targeted by loyalists. More and more I just see you answering questions with questions rather than trying to answer them for yourself to do with the things that have been pointed out concerning sinn fein. Then again siin fein are experts at doing that, any questioning about ira atrocities, double standards etc is replied to by some waffle that people get lost in. No matter how often the question is asked they come back with the usual waffle. Maybe you should tune in to radio ulster in the morning, sometimes it is more like comedy listening to certain sf members duck and dive the questions. The education minister after her last performance should be on stage. Empey could join her there.
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Apr 21, 2008 21:30:02 GMT
Its very simple sentata we don't trust you, the We being the loyalist community and you being the republican movement. Until such time as that trusts exists then the loyalist community will not allow the UVF to disarm end of story, if you have problem with that take it up with the loyalist community.
By the way i have heard no threats from the UVF regarding thier weapons. Of course you are right not to worry about the leadership of the Loyalist paramiltarys instead you should be worried about the people of the loyalist community, those ones that love thier country dearly, those ones that feel let down and alienated by the politics of today, those ones that have nothing to do with drugs or crimanlty, in short the averge commonal garden working class loyalist man and women, because if the republican movement continues to push us the way it is doing it is us it will answer to in the End not the UVF not the UDA, LVF, RHC, RHD etc etc but us and mark my words we are angrey. Of course you won't be alone, the DUP, UUP will answer to. What form that anger will take who knows personly i hope it manifests itself in new politcal thinking in the mass moblisation of the unionist community behind new unified political thinking but i am just one person with no control over my community,
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Post by Wasp on Apr 21, 2008 23:02:23 GMT
Wilderneess that is exactly what I have been trying to say although I would add that this feeling is running through much of the middle class as well. To what extent I am not so sure but the anger etc at those I ahve spoke to is on level ground with the working class.
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 12:51:46 GMT
At least you are using the tactics of the ira green card with trying to cause division among Unionists. Your posts contradict eachother, one minute you claim to not support the ira then you defend them in others. Oh thats right what was it you said about them about them maybe having an element of sectarianism in some of there attacks. Please tell me what group I support, tell me the loyalist groups I have condemnd many times on these forums etc etc. Obviously you have been caught with your wild assumptions as usual, disecting posts and taking them out of context as usual, and caught with not saying the same things to those on here who supported the ira and refused to condemn there most horrific actions. But you save that for me because of what I have posted and not once did I say anything about terrorist attacks on the nationalist community that I refused to condemn. Earl it is you who are showing your true colours here not me, any inclination that I might support loyalist paras is greeted with being accused of having sectarian hatred, yet those who fully supported the terrorists you often defend did not receive such remarks. But I will echo your points about any Unionists who think that I have made correct points concerning your defence of the ira and lets not forget your extreme anti-Britishness etc should say so. You are a hypocrite. That's what I'm having a go at you for. You are constantly on here, bleating about SF/IRA and yet you openly support terrorism yourself. Setanta and BA have never made it a secret where their opinions lie, and I don't agree with them. Harry has said in the past that he has supported a certain amount of Loyalist actions, again, openly. (Insult removed by Setanta)Show me where I have openly supported the PIRA. Show me where I have condoned PIRA activities? I've posted up several unionist orientated links and I have put up links here on past PIRA atrocities. Sure you're new hammer, I gave that to you about how the PIRA operated with their bombs and the reasons behind their tactics. Before that, you were blowing on like an ignorant fool, about how the PIRA wanted maximum lives taken. I put it into context for you. Whatever moral ground you thought you had on this site is permanently gone. One thing I can't stand is a coward who hides behind lies. Do as I say and not as I do eh WASP? Is that your mantra? |
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 12:58:18 GMT
Harry while it maybe hypocritical, but the dup did call many times for all groups to disarm before and after st Andres and they condemned all terrorist attacks as well. That said how many of these organisations carry enough political clout to make up quite a porportion of the stormont gov which would include one of them being deputy or first minister? There lies the difference as no-one would accept the uda's political wing for example having a memberas deputy minister while his partys private army is still armed to the teeth. They wouldn't accept the UDA politically, but as you've confirmed here yourself, unionists want them at arms length with dry powder, just in case. This is hypocrisy. If the unionist community really wanted to make sure that the troubles would not return, they'd be putting pressure on these groups. They won't listen to the British government and they certainly won't listen to the Irish government or SF, so only the unionist community can put pressure on these. This hasn't happened because the 'holier than thou' unionists don't talk to people like that.....unless they have a use for them. |
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 13:34:41 GMT
WASP
So, translating your above statement, you don't want anyone shot or injured but you wish to keep the risk of someone being shot or injured high. How in blazes does that make any sense? Not supporting decommissioning is supporting the crazy carry on's of the troubles. It shows weakness. Clearly the unionist community know that their politicians are not worth much cop. Now that the battle has been brought off the streets and into the chambers, unionists know that they are at a disadvantage. Their majority number in the assembly doesn't really make a hill of beans as it's power sharing, and this means both sides have to agree. This means that it is politician vs. politician since the playing field is level.
Clearly, SF is ruffling a lot of feathers, and some of it is pettiness for whatever reason, but certainly not all of it. They have a mandate, and unlike unionist politicians, they will follow it. And if it's not SF doing it, it would be some other nationalist party.
If unionists thought that the GFA would bring about the end to the aspirations for a UI, then, I'm shocked. What the hell have you been told about the GFA? To nationalists/republicans, this is a temporary set up, that will assist the development of their aspiration. It's a waiting game now. The target during this period of semi-normalisation is to expand support for a UI through the systems put in place. The target groups are immigrants and soft unionists. A slightly higher birth rate will also help. There's nothing stopping unionists from using those same systems to try and secure the union. That's what they are there for too. But clearly, unionist politicians will have to up their game to compete.
As regards using decommissioning as a bargaining chip, nah WASP, ain't going to happen. Irvine was right. It was a red herring. And nationalists are not going to fall for it.
In this post 9/11 world, should those guns be put in action again, the British government would work very hard to silence them again. How can they say that they are in Iraq to fight this war on terror, while their own home grown terrorists are running rampant against a democratic system that had been given a majority approval? Didn't your own (former) prime minister relate Loyalist terrorists to Islamic extremists? It's a different world out there now WASP. Those guns you cherish so much have a greater probability of blowing wee 10 year old Billy Jones of Tigers Bay away, than they do of getting the likes of Setanta or I.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 22, 2008 16:03:12 GMT
.
ok
so you only say things like sectarian hatred to those who in your opinion are hypocrites? My mind boggles at your hypocritical double standards to try and avoid saying anything similar to republicans. I think that makes you the hypocrite.
.
Oh do I?
But you can't say anything about there sectarian hatred now can you yet you can say it to me because of what you ASSUMED from my post. Now who is the hypocrite.
(Insult removed by Setanta)
Oh you try and be a bit to crafty for that, as I said some of your posts are bordering on supporting the ira with some of your idiotic and unknowledgeable assumptions of what exactly the ira done up here.
And that proves what?
Now that makes me laugh, when it comes to ignorant fools take a look in the mirror because your own onesided bigoted anti-British views are well are blatantly obvious. Describing the ira as having perhaps some of there attacks with the sectarian element to them just shows where your sympathy lies or else proves that you haven't a clue aboput what the ira done. Maybe you just can't speak out to much against them. So you are now claiming that the ira did not want to maximize lives taken? What an ignorant fool you really are. Again the ira wanted maximum deaths while trying to keep a lid on the propaganda, so they tried to mix both with devastating effect.
I never thought I had any moral highground but thanks for thinking at onetime I must have deserved to have it. Cheers for the compliment.
I cannot stand cowards either, but fuck me you have strong condemnation of those you view as cowards but little or none for the cowards in the ira or those who supported them.
Yes headmaster, am I getting lines or the cane?
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Post by Wasp on Apr 22, 2008 16:10:34 GMT
How do you know what the future holds if say the uda etc cleaned up their act and there political party became even half as strong as the likes of sinn fein.
Well I can only speak for the Unionists that I have spoken to and did I say they all wanted the loyalist groups to be armed etc??
I think if you re-read wilderness post about it not being the uda/uvf etc etc that sinn fein will have to answer to but the Unionist people etc, you will see that I totally agreed. Man you are wild at making wild assumptions yet greet and gurn if the slightest assumption is made about you.
To an extent I agree but unfortunately some so called loyalists are a law unto themselves and it won't matter a dam what I or anyone else says. Maybe you would be better directing your attention to the causes of these feelings within the PUL community rather than trying to focus on any possible outcome. So start with republicans and what sinn fein are all to often doing. Take away the causes and there will be no such feelings.
Ah get off your fucking high horse you republican hypocrite.
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 16:31:53 GMT
I'm not continuing this argument with you WASP. You've ran out of idea's when all you can do is trade the same lines back to me. No-one rushed to back you up on your theory of me being a closet provo lover, so I know it's just all smoke and noise from you.
You got found out. Deal with it.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 22, 2008 16:32:40 GMT
Not at all it shows the strength to hold out. Clearly you cannot follow what exactly I am saying here. Again I do not want to see anyone hrt or killed and that means anyone. But we are in a situation with a threat from dissidents and who the fuck is going to really deal with them with the very real chance of at least some sinn fein members having a level of sympathy for the dissidents or rather can't stomach seeing any republican getting taken out by the security forces (for example if they were about to kill someone and the security forces reurned fire). Isn't there everychance that perhaps some sf members who have any say on policing will constantly try to block security force efforts?
Secondly if any group hits back at the dissedents then that may make them think again. Isn't part of the reason for the ira ceasefire due to the fact loyalists started hitting the right targets.
Thirdly and more importantly perhaps the decommisioning can become a bargaining tool and perhaps the threat of violence will see loylaists rewarded for giving it up the way republicans were. As things stand it is the republican way or no way.
Now that is the usual republican idiotic swipe I expect from bigoted sectarian republicans. Unionists were in the chambers during the troubles along with the non violent nationalist sdlp and they constantly condemned violence. As far as the battle on the streets are concerned I don't think Unionsits come close to republican violence organized by republican party leaders and members.
AND?
Some of it is a dam sight worse than pettiness but you couldn't say that noww could you? And I never ever said all of it was. If you re-read my posts you will clearly see me saying that in the past I have welcomed sf moves etc.
You really haven't a clue about up here now have you? I am well aware of sf mandate which they have every right to have but does there mandate include the things that I have said such as the pettiness you referred to or the downright provocative and antagonizing nature that they have continued with. Stop trying to twist things around, maybe you should join sf as you certainly are a good spokesperson for there idiotic, hypocritical spin and lies.
Well I never ever thought that, I know there aspirations would not chnage but I did hope that perhaps everyone could eventually be happy with the status quo and maybe there wish for a UI would fall down the list of priorities.
And you will never ever get that from Unionists.
Well at least you showed bithsides here and I agree with your last comment.
But the governments might and never say never to do with nationalsit especially if violence flared up again.
And how did they do it before when there own home grown terrorists (ira) were running rampant against the wishes of the majority inlcuding the 2 governments?
Well he's a wanker but then what do you expect being married into a family with republican sympathies, with a sister inlaw calling the British forces foreign forces? Bit like some of the very good writers that are Irish, take Ruth Dudley Edwards among some of them.
Again usual republican drivel, for starters you are assuming I cherish them and secondly you are assuming that I want you or setanta blown away. I wouldn't waste a breath on your goodself so don't try to pretend you are anything important on the scale of events, you don't even make it. How on earht would someone who has never lived here, hasn't a clue about what really is going on be a target?
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Post by Harry on Apr 22, 2008 16:33:23 GMT
I think we have been here before. What will Loyalists gain from handing in their weapons?? Nothing. It won't change anything, at all. Loyalism will still be on the fringes of everything. Until Loyalism can articulate itself as a worthy political machine then i'm afraid that decommissioning won't ever be on the cards. It shouldn't be any surprise or be called hypocritical. The DUP, UUP or any mainstream Unionist party don't represent me. They demanded the IRA handed in their weapons, not Loyalism. I'm openly stating that it would be foolish of Loyalism to hand over all their weapons. The IRA certainly retains a capability, unless some of you Republicans are going to tell me the IRA have no weapons at all now?  ? |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 22, 2008 16:41:33 GMT
I'm not continuing this argument with you WASP. You've ran out of idea's when all you can do is trade the same lines back to me. No-one rushed to back you up on your theory of me being a closet provo lover, so I know it's just all smoke and noise from you. You got found out. Deal with it. Ah well I suppose it takes a big man to admit defeat. OR maybe you can't take a taste of your own medicence so you back out like a coward while trying to save face. Did anyone rush to back you that I love terrorists? Maybe some people just don't want onvolved in your childish assumptions and they keep out of it, maybe they know too well what you can be like so they ignore you and maybe just maybe the same goes for me. BTW I have nothing to deal with as I haven't been found out on anything. EVEN IF I DID COMPLETELY CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT THINGS, IS THAT A CRIME, IS THAT NOT ALLOWED BECAUSE YOU YOURSEFL HAVE CHANGED YOUR MIND, REPUBLCIAN TERRORISTS WHO HAVE CHANGED THERE MIND (APPARENTLY), THERE SUPPORTERS HAVE APPARENTLY CHANGED THERE MIND (OOPS BUT YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING SECTARIAN ABOUT THEM NOW CAN YOU???) ETC ETC, IS IT A CRIME FOR ME TO COMPLETELY CHANGE? Now I know in your wee silly world of assumptions you will assume that this is me saying I now support loayalsit terrorsits past and present but that is not what I am saying. If you can't stick the heat goto the chill out room and have a cigar or do what you did for the last few days and stay away. I sometimes do that and it helps. |
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