Sectarianism at Windsor???

[An Fear Dubh]

I think you are being silly here Wasp and not wanting to be objective but mischievious, but I will indulge you a little in the hope that I am wrong. And you are deliberately mixing up what I said about players, and what I said about fans, the two are not quiet the same.

With Donegal Celtic joining the 'Norn Iron Premiership' more people who follow local football have come out of the woodwork, and living close to Donegal Celtic Club I have come into contact with more of them. Some I have known for years and was unaware of their interest in local football. And I have questioned them on why they kept such an interest quiet, for I was curious. As some have always been open in their activities, and like going to watch local soccer matches anywhere. Mal Donaghy has at various points in his career socialized in our company. And while Mal has been challenged on some political aspects (not by myself) he was not damned for all eternity. He was able to put forward a justifiable response.

So in the nationalist community and I imagine the loyalist community to be exactly the same, and Wasp often tells us, that he does not support this or that within Loyalism/Unionism, there are various shades of nationalism. People who have followed Cliftonvile for many years, have visited Windsor as Cliftonville fans and have no doubt returned to watch Norn Iron matches, do you think they go as the Norn Iron Cliftonville supporters group? Maybe they do, I do not know, but I would hazzard a guess that they go as Norn Iron supporters only and keep the Cliftonville bit to themselves. But Belfast is a small place and I have no doubt that a few are recognised as Cliftonville supporters. My friend is a Donegal Celtic supporter, and only recently admitted he went to Windsor to support Norn Iron. During the slagging he was asked if he wore his Donegal Celtic top, to which he replied he always pretended to be a Protestant from Lisburn who supported Distillery. Not much other detail was asked for as the crack was that he felt embarressed having made the admission. And we did not care who he had admitted to following it was his embarressment at this admission.
Why he felt the need to pretend I am not sure, why he felt he should hide his social activities from his friends, I do not know either. But I can guess at both.

As I said there are two main reasons why nationalists do not go to Windsor Park.

One reason is the Sectarian element.
And reducing and totally removing that will make it easier for some nationalists to visit at various times.

The other reason is Irish nationalism, and the Norn Iron team is a representation of the division of Ireland. For republicans recognition of the southern state has been the same as recogition of the northern state. Neither state represents a United Ireland. So while some nationalists support the team in the south, it is not the team of republicans.
This is the purist republican view, but we can not live in pure terms we must live in the realities of what is and what can be achieved.
So yes Harry I could see and I expect to see more nationalists going to local matches to watch Norn Iron. I do believe a new stadium at the Maze or where-ever will help that support quicker than I expect change to occur in sufficient requirements at Windsor. But Windsor still has a big task to complete and has only started to address the issue, at least that is my perception of the problem.

[Harry]

AFD, i believe the problem of sectarianism at windsor for NI games has more than just been addressed and is actively being crushed but i accept your views and if i maybe was a nationalist perhaps it wouldn't seem so rosy to me.

You have hit the nail in the head in regards to the north and south teams so for some republicans/nationalists they will never support NI and thats their choice, won't matter to them what the atmosphere is like at windsor or how safe your car is they make an informed decision not to support NI based on their own beliefs and not becuase of any actions or inactions by NI supporters or the IFA, is that a fair statement??

I do agree alot more work needs to be done, but we also need to understand what can be achieved. We will never create a team that represents NI that will be supported equally by both communities, in the football world anyway.

[An Fear Dubh]

I can agree with the second and third paragraphs, I am not sure about the first paragraph.

But I do not go to Windsor Park so I do rely on second-hand and third-hand reports from which I form my view. And I accept that such an assessment is not the best, and if the tables were reversed I might be incined to dismiss such an assessment. So I must defer to your assessment, as it is based on direct knowledge. And you can be certain I will question those that attend the next International match very closely, but I will not be begrudging and nit picking like Wasp seems to be. And isolated incidents will not be blown out of proportion. But you have certainly given me reason to look more closely.

While some republicans will never support a Norn Iron team. Republicans are a minority within the nationalist community. Because we are highly disciplined, well organised, focused on the goal and dedicated, just makes us seem like we are everywhere. But the discpline of republicans does not mean that nationalists have the same discipline. And many could be enticed to Windsor or another stadium to support Norn Iron. But they need to have their fears calmed and feel safe, at the moment that perception of fear and caution still exists.

[Harry]

Last Updated: Friday, 6 April 2007, 09:15 GMT 10:15 UK

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Maze plan 'first political football'



By Gareth Gordon
Political correspondent, BBC Northern Ireland










The Maze Prison and the great stadium debate is one of the first political footballs the new devolved administration in Northern Ireland will have to deal with - and it has just bounced right into the DUP's court.


How the Maze site could look if the plans get the go ahead


Although remaining publicly very supportive, the minister responsible, David Hanson, will wash his hands of it if Stormont returns on 8 May.




Then it is over to the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure, which will be responsible for sport; finance - which controls the purse strings; environment - which controls planning, and ultimately the Office of the First and Deputy First Minister.

And what do all these have in common? DUP ministers at the helm.

It is an issue which holds potential pitfalls for the party.

It is much easier for Sinn Fein - whose price for supporting a stadium at the old prison site is retention of one of the H-blocks and the prison hospital (where the hunger strikers died) as an International Centre for Conflict Transformation.

The DUP have had to swallow that, even though to many of their supporters it will always be known as a "shrine to terrorism".

Then there is the opposition to the Maze location by a sizeable section of the Northern Ireland football team's support - many of them probably DUP supporters as well.

'Endorsement of main parties'



Officially, the party has no stated policy on the Maze. It did not even rate a mention in its manifesto for the assembly election.

Neither has Ian Paisley ever publicly stated his own views on the project.

But, according to Stormont sources, he has told David Hanson that the Lagan Valley MLA Edwin Poots officially speaks for him on the Maze/Long Kesh Regeneration panel which he chairs.

"The government would not have taken this so far but for the endorsement of the four main parties," said one source.


According to the published masterplan, developing the Maze would cost up to £400m, and unless a private sector development partner with deep pockets shares the cost, the project is dead



Edwin Poots has been a very strong advocate of a stadium at the Maze - hardly surprising as it is slap bang in the middle of his constituency.

In recent days, he has been mentioned as a possible DCAL Minister.

The DUP is not saying. But if he was given the job, it would, rightly or wrongly, be taken as a strong signal of its intentions on the Maze.



Either way it is probably now down to money - not personalities.

According to the published masterplan, developing the Maze would cost up to £400m, and unless a private sector development partner with deep pockets shares the cost, the project is dead.

However, there seems to be no shortage of takers. Eight or nine bid consortia responded with initial expressions of interest and these have now been whittled down to a shortlist of four.



One of the infamous H-blocks is to be retained



Then it is up to the executive and value for money.

Undoubtedly, it will feature large in discussions between the Northern Ireland parties and the chancellor.

David Hanson had already promised a decision on the stadium before any planning application could be submitted in November.

With the remarkable speed of change at Stormont in the past fortnight the feeling is that devolution could bring that decision forward - maybe even before the summer recess.

Within a fortnight representatives of the three sports which would use the stadium, football, rugby and gaelic games, will be asked to sign off on an updated business plan.

This business plan will then form the basis of individual presentations to the decision-making bodies within the three sports, who will also be given first sight of the concept design of the stadium by designers HOK.

These presentations will probably be completed by early next month.

The sports will then be asked to complete their internal decision-making processes and declare their intention to commit fully to the project and not just in principle as at present.

Of course, none of that will wash with those fans who believe that the stadium should be built in Belfast and that one at the Maze will be a white elephant impossible to get to or away from, and which will be a never-ending drain on the public purse.


Plan includes a new £55m multi-sports stadium

They argue that the Maze was chosen because it suited the political ends of an unpopular direct rule administration - and had nothing to do with the needs of sport or those who follow it.

Now that it looks like a Stormont executive will make the ultimate decision they must refocus their fire. The DUP, too, must consider the consequences of potentially alienating some supporters.

But they will be well aware that when the so-called "bread and butter" issues were raised on the doorsteps in March it was water charges and rates, not the Maze, that people wanted action on.

As for white elephants, the past few weeks have shown us that pigs can fly.

[An Fear Dubh]

It is interesting that you brought that up. As it has been suggested that this might go to the wall. The thinking is that water rates have only been deferred for one year. That bill still needs to be met a year later. And by ditching this project, the money saved could be used to plug the water bill (do you like that pun?).