Illegal British Spies, film Loyalist Crucifiction

[Harry]

Scumbag traitor bastard.

[earl]

Nothing new here. The British government never really respected Irish soverignty. more of the truth will come out over the next few years. We'll see who was paranoid then!

[Jim]

Not like the Irish government will do anything about it.

Fair play to him, I'd not risk my balls doing that. but I'm not surprised that the british army are still spying on my community.

[Wasp]

Take it with a pinch of salt. First of all

"he is too frightened to be identified because he has broken the Official Secrets Act"

Then he reveals about the fact he was going with a Belfast nationalist woman and his bosses told hiom to end the relationship.

So if he was genuine, if he was too frightened incase he is identified, why did he give the reason he became a whistleblower?

This would obviously blow his cover.

Lot of bollocks.

[Jim]

its a lot of bollocks because you dont want to believe your countries army is still up to its dirty tricks when its officially left NI.

[Wasp]

jim said:

its a lot of bollocks because you dont want to believe your countries army is still up to its dirty tricks when its officially left NI.

How wrong you are, my country which is the same as your country has an army who are not angels and have made errors and done wrong. I have no problem admitting that.

However it has nothing to do with our countries army why I think it is a load of bollocks. FFS it is staring you in the face, he doesn't want to be identified because he is frightened, then he clearly states the reason as to why he is now saying this which would narrow who he is down a fair bit don't you think.

Funny how anything anti-British you take as 100% fact yet concerning republicans you disagree and go on the defensive not believing what has been said. This shows that you have a level of bigotry yourself Jim, anything British must be true if it's bad, anything republican can't be true if its bad.

I never said the army don't use cameras etc, ffs they were dealing with terrorists who lived within a community and carried out attacks on the security forces, civillians, buildings etc for over three decades. WHAT do you want them to do, just give them free movement where they could move guns, launch attacks etc?

[Jim]

Made errors is just the tip of the iceberg.

Why are the British army still watching areas of west Belfast like a James bond movie when they're suppose to have pulled out? If it was happening in America there would be millions taking to the streets in protest. What is right about the British army being able to see me or someone else eat their dinner, watch tv, watching where I go, where I buy my milk, where I drink, where I drive, where I work and what times I go take a shite? Whats the justification?

Why are they crossing the border and not respecting a "foreign countries" sovereignty? If the Irish army was to cross the border tomorrow you'd be out up in arms, literally.

Anything British doesnt mean its automatically true but spying like this has been known on and off for years, people just didnt know the locations. I've admitted to wrong-doings with republicans before, I've condemned things, went against the gospel truths of republicanism and done it openly on this forum, so you cant throw that shite at me.

Whens the last time the Provisionals launched an attack on the British army? What did they use, spud guns? They dont have an arsenal and the CIRA/RIRA have as much capability as any small organisation; none. Granted, it would have been called for back in the day, back in the 70s 80s and early 90s, but not now.

[Wasp]

Made errors is just the tip of the iceberg.

Maybe so but on what factual proof are you basing your opinion on?

Why are the British army still watching areas of west Belfast like a James bond movie when they're suppose to have pulled out?

West Belfast is an area that has alot of terrorist activities, sympathy and members. The real ira are still a threat and because the ira have claimed to have stopped all activity does not mean that they are to be taken at their word. Plenty of things have happened including murders that are linked to the ira or its members. This is why and it is something that I fully support until all criminality has really stopped and all violence has really stopped involving paramilitaries.

If it was happening in America there would be millions taking to the streets in protest.

I don't agree here, Americans IMO would be all to happy to know that their security forces are taking all necessary precautions and actions to protect the communities from terrorsit attacks and crimes.

What is right about the British army being able to see me or someone else eat their dinner, watch tv, watching where I go, where I buy my milk, where I drink, where I drive, where I work and what times I go take a shite? Whats the justification?

See answers above, but IMO the blame lies squarely with those who are still a threat to the community, those still involved in violence and crime. More and more people from republican communities are standing up to the ira, these people have concerns also and there concerns need to be dealt with as these are the very people who are the victims or would be victims.

Why are they crossing the border and not respecting a "foreign countries" sovereignty? If the Irish army was to cross the border tomorrow you'd be out up in arms, literally.

It is very easy to make a mistake by crossing the border. But IMO they should take all steps necessary to keep a watch on wherever the threat is coming from or where the threat goes to. We all know that alot of Western countires have spies working in other countires, so this is no different if it is proved factual and true. I have already gave my opinion before on the right of the republics security forces to cross the border in pursuit of those who have carried out attacks.

Anything British doesnt mean its automatically true but spying like this has been known on and off for years, people just didnt know the locations. I've admitted to wrong-doings with republicans before, I've condemned things, went against the gospel truths of republicanism and done it openly on this forum, so you cant throw that shite at me.

That is true but you are quick to believe this mans claim as factual because it happened elsewhere but you are very quick to deny claims by other republican families who have been victims of ira threats and violence. This was my point. Take Quinns murder for example.

Whens the last time the Provisionals launched an attack on the British army? What did they use, spud guns? They dont have an arsenal and the CIRA/RIRA have as much capability as any small organisation; none. Granted, it would have been called for back in the day, back in the 70s 80s and early 90s, but not now.

Ok at least we agree it would have been called for, but IMO it still is because of what the ira or its members and the real ira are still doing. The same goes for the uda for example.

[Jim]

I'm basing my opinion of the British army from books I have read that go into detail on their antics, they're fairly credable too and involve years of investigating and interviewing ex soldiers and IRA.

The RIRA are not a threat, they dont have support that your talking about, not even close. The only organisation that has mass support has put away its weapons and the political party representing it is in government. That is support. The British army are still playing big brother and they can fuck off. Maybe they should set up a TV channel so the world can watch west belfast and give the money to the community

Americans are an odd, they want security but they dont want big brother watching their every move, they would most definitely be on the streets. Freedom and liberty is important to their constitution and moves by armies to spy on its people fundamentaly go against those values.

The british army and the UVF has always been the threat to my community.

I'm not saying I'm not biased, I am biased, everyone is biased, I know what I saw when I grew up in west belfast, and I've read enough to back up my opinions or I just dont reply. I'm as quick to defend republicans as you are to defend the orange order or loyalism.

the british army are out of touch with the era, they never really left it this is the case, it was all just propaganda.

[Blue Angel]

exactly jim, it was all propaganda - the squaddies left -they can be brought back overnight - the important bits of the army - the intelligence gathering services are and will continue to be doing what they have been doing for several centuries in ireland spying and playing the local populace one against the other.

[Jim]

I would like to ask Wasp would he accept the Irish army, or another army, spitting on British sovereignty by spying on people in Belfast or in London or in Birmingham or in Glasgow? And furthermore, doing it without the British government or army knowing about it.

Or would he be angry that they have no respect for British sovereignty.

[Wasp]

First of all the British army spying on people in Belfast or elsewhere in N.Ireland are doing so on British territory. Secondly most countries have spies spying on fellow countries. Doesn't Ireland have this problem as well from other countries?

[Jim]

I dont give a fuck if its on british territory, if they where spying like that on the english (and believe me there are more guns here than in ni) there would be out-rage.

Most countries have spying on fellow countries, they do it with individuals, not entire units of their military. If the British cant respect the border then they should dismantle it.

[Blue Angel]

the british have never respected the border jim and spying on the entire nationalist community as 'potentially disloyal' is no new thing of course. The informer and spy have a central (and hated part) in irish history and the downfall of many republican or nationalist movements (although to be fair the cack handed way some of these were run aided the spys job).

And of course once again we see the essential difference there in wasps point about whose territory this island is -for republicans NI is illegally occupied by a foreign power but from an unionist perspective it is an integral part of the Uk - hard to reconcile those two views.

WASP the British army hardly covered itself in glory either in the original troubles or in this round of them and it's ability to treat the local populace as natives to be cowed rather than as fully fledged british citizens (since it was argued that they were there to protect everyone's right as such....) did not endear to them many over the years.

[Wasp]

And of course once again we see the essential difference there in wasps point about whose territory this island is -for republicans NI is illegally occupied by a foreign power but from an unionist perspective it is an integral part of the Uk - hard to reconcile those two views.

I understand that but the term occupied cannot be used, if those who are meant to be doing the 'occupying' are wanted and welcomed by the majority then it is hardly occupying.

WASP the British army hardly covered itself in glory either in the original troubles or in this round of them and it's ability to treat the local populace as natives to be cowed rather than as fully fledged british citizens (since it was argued that they were there to protect everyone's right as such....) did not endear to them many over the years.

I have never ever said the British army didn't make errors or done wrong. But they did a tremendous job in very difficult circumstances and risked their lives daily. What is it republicans want? Do they want the British security forces not to watch those who are or maybe are a threat to security, to the community, to buildings etc etc. If the republic had loyalist areas where there was support for loyalist terrorism I would fully expect the republics security forces to take all necessary precautions including surveillance to try to prevent further terrorist attacks, criminality etc etc from taking place. Would you not want your government to do the same to try and protect those that the terrorists are threatening?Would you not demand that the Irish government use every surveillance technique available if they were not already doing so?

If not I would be surprized if all terrorist organisations in the world did not base themselves in the republic because they would have a field day if sinn fein and there supporters were running the place. No worries about people watching them, following them trying to thwart terrorist attacks, movement of arms, robberies, killings etc etc. FFS the republic would be the world centre base for all terrorists.

Blame the terrorists, those who assist them etc not the army or anywhere else. The blame lies squarely at the feet of those involved in criminality, terrorism and threatening those within their own community which all to often has resulted in the death of someone.