Illegal British Spies, film Loyalist Crucifiction

[Wasp]

setanta said:

are we crying and demanding the collapse of government and saying we don't want anything to do with the British after this? Nope. We're getting on with it.

Makes a change for sinn fein in N.Ireland not to be crying and demanding. Apart from that, there is no 'after this' as 'this' has not been proved to be factual. If it is then the army has every damm right to watch those who are, and those suspected of being a threat to N.Ireland and those who live within it.

[Wasp]

They certainly do have every damm right. Maybe that is how things are done in the republic but for me the securtiy forces should not have to goto any court to keep an eye on terrorists, suspected terrorists or those that assist them. Surely you are only wanting to make things easier for the criminals/terrorists by your logic. So you would want the republics securtiy forces to go through all the correct court proceedings to be allowed to watch loyalist terrorists even though intelligence suggests that an attack is iminent, even though various groups and political parties including sinn fein are under immediate threat, and even though these same terrorists have been terroring Irish people for years and years? And not forgetting that there is every chnace that someone within the court is sympathetic to loyalists and could tip them off.

[Wasp]

I know that Setanta but IMO this evidence should be admissible in court, the law is too heavy on the one side protecting terrorists/criminals. All evidence should be used and IMO the law needs to be changed. Is there not talk about changing British law to this effect since the July bombings? I would fully support this but equally I would say to the British government why now and why not years ago because of what was happeneing in N.Ireland. We know that there were those wrongfully accused but compared to the guilty ones it is small in comparison, no legal system is perfect. But we also know plenty of guilty people from all sides walked scot free and IMO the much needed change in the law would have prevented a big part of this.

[Blue Angel]

oh certainly i'd say we can use the term 'occupying' in a state which was created by ignoring a majority in the first place.

[Wasp]

N.Ireland is a country of its own right. The British army and the British in general which includes people like myself are far from being occupiers.

All of the British army members were born when the country N.Ireland existed so they cannot be classed as occupiers when the majority of those who live in that country both want them and welcome them.

The vast majority of British people in N.Ireland were born in N.Ireland, are British by birth and live in the country they were born and bred in, so the term occupying is untrue and totally incorrect no matter what way you try and word round it.

[Jim]

N.Ireland was created against the majority of the island, that is a fact. I will always see the British army as a foreign power.

Wasp, would you let people stare through your front window 24 hours a day?

[Blue Angel]

the 'majority' in n.ireland as you put it wasp becomes a thinner argument each decade as demographics change. What the fact that most of the British army troops were born when N.Ireland exsisted has to do with anything I fail to see - most of the British army soldiers in Ireland over the last few centuries were not born before Ireland was conquered - it does not make them any less an occupying force in the 18th century than it does today. But for my money I still believe that N.Ireland been built as it was essentially on bigotry and sectarianism and favouritisim directed towards one segment of the population (not to mention the the potential threat of treason by the 'loyal' side if they didn't get their own way) will eventually fall apart in any case unless it changes radically and i see little real evidence for such a change.

[Wasp]

Jim I would bare my arse out at them. I would not like it at all, but it is something that I would live with for the time being in the interests of security.

I would also demand that my community reps and politicians done more to lessen any would be threat.

BA how can they be an occupying force today if the majority want them here and the majority of people call themselves British? Give me a single poll or vote that shows that the vast majority does not want them here and I will see your point on how they can be called occupying forces now.

For all your contempt for the British army and your view on the British as being occupiers etc you ceertainly don't seem to mind them when you live and work in England. If I had the same views as you but the other way around the last place I would want to live, work in, be educated in etc would be the republic.

[Harry]

We can go into all the finer details and argue all day about it but fact is that NI is part of the UK and as such falls under the control of British Forces be they regular army or more covert troops. Don't be silly and start crying about the British are supposed to have gone away and not meant to be gathering intel on anyone anymore. Jim, Setanta, BA or whoever else, do you honestly believe the IRA has just packed up and ceased to exsist?? Do you honestly believe there is no threat coming from dissident republicans, perhaps tell that to the 2 innocent PSNI officers shot over the past month or so!!!

We are in the very very early stages of so called peace. I'd be mortified and totally disgusted if British services just switched off and took the mouthpieces of Republicanism at their word. It would be suicide to let potential threats have a free run. When the threats subside then i fully expect the Covert surveillance to subside also. Its not nice to feel you are being watched but its also not nice to be shot or blown to bits. Circumstances created circumstances and so on and so on. The number of covert ops will be drastically reduced compared to during the troubles and they will reflect the current climate. Intel isn't gathered just for the sake of it and it takes time and money and all covert ops will be rounded up when the threat is neutralised.

[Jim]

So you would not want them staring through your front window but its fine if you cant see them, is that the message?

Harry the IRA are the only ones to make any moves to give up their guns, so yes I would say it is genuine, after 30 years of refusing to budge it was very significant. Dissidents are another matter completely, I'm assuming you mean the provisionals when you say "IRA".

British soldiers spying on people is more likely to give dissidents fuel. Its the Governments way of keeping control over you, a government that hasnt ever recieved a single vote in this state, if the Assembly wasnt up it would be a text book dictatorship and the Armies activities certainly resemble that. While you may be mortified if they stopped I wouldnt.

When was the last IRA bomb? When was the last time a Provo opened fire on the RUC or the British army?

[bearhunter]

Harry, I can understand your suspicion of the PIRA, but considering they at least have given up their guns (or a sizeable amount of them anyway) I would be more trusting of them than, say, the UDA/UVF who have given nothing but empty promises dressed up in archaic rhetoric. I'd rather have the guns than any poxy promises.
WASP, firstly, can I ask do you believe it is acceptable for the British Army to enter the Republic covertly to spy people here? And while your eagerness to help the security forces defeat terrorism, even to the extent of changing the judicial system to make it easier to get a conviction, would you also then advocate the suspension of habeas corpus and a return to Diplock Courts? Will you be lining up for a security pass/ID card when Brown hands them out because this will help defeat terrorism? Will you be happy ewnough to have to carry a passport/ID card when you travel between NI and Britain, despite the fact that you see them as one country, because this is helping reduce the threat of terrorism?

[Wasp]

WASP, you've been extremely critical of your government.

Yes at times I have.

What if that critisism and you saying that the Unionist People won't take much more of it is construed as a threat to the Government of the UK, they scoop you up and you're off to Gitmo, denied the protection of the law and a fair trail.

First of all after sometime keeping an eye on me they would realize that I am not a threat to them, but there is a strong possibility that some from the circles I associate with are, or suspected of being a threat, so I would expect them to keep an eye on us all just incase they manage to brainwash me or others.

Far fetched I know but look at the "democratic" government of Russia right now.
Basically a government should fear it's people not the other way around.

A government should fear its people and listen to the people. But people have to understand that there are those in our society that impose fear and distruction on other people, and these other people need protected from those who threaten them. Sadly we have had thirty years of unjustified bloodshed, blood that did not need to be spilt where all sides shoulder some blame at least. Suspicians on those who took part in the bloodshed does not disappear overnight, nor does it mean they all have a clean bill of respect for human life because some say they have stopped their activities. There is also those who still pose an immediate threat against our society and they must be monitored incase they brainwash others to add to there numbers.

[Wasp]

WASP, firstly, can I ask do you believe it is acceptable for the British Army to enter the Republic covertly to spy people here?

Absolutely, without doubt. If they are a threat or have carried out terrorist actions then I couldn't care where they are spied on. Follow them to the north pole if it helps in anyway to reduce that threat. At the end of the day many countries have spies all over the world, even spying on their allies.

And while your eagerness to help the security forces defeat terrorism, even to the extent of changing the judicial system to make it easier to get a conviction, would you also then advocate the suspension of habeas corpus and a return to Diplock Courts?

If the law was targeting terrorists/criminals properly as in doing all it can to reduce their crimes then the present courts we have are fine.

Will you be lining up for a security pass/ID card when Brown hands them out because this will help defeat terrorism? Will you be happy ewnough to have to carry a passport/ID card when you travel between NI and Britain, despite the fact that you see them as one country, because this is helping reduce the threat of terrorism?

Absolutely, I hope we have to carry these cards wherever we go.

[Jim]

Is it equally justifiable that the Republic tresspass illegally onto British territory, for example, England, to spy on people in their thousands?

Spies spy on Governments, not the population. This isnt James Bond.

Or does it work one way.

Keep your card, by the way, I'll not be having one. Gordon Brown doesnt need to know at what time do I take a shite.

[Blue Angel]

I love the way my critique of the british govt and army is responded to with a not so subtle 'if you don't like it piss of back to ireland', answer - i have no dislike of individual british soldiers- most of them are working class kids who grew up on council estates like myself and a lot of them didn't join the army for any great patriotic reasons but because it offered a better career than any others they might have had access to. I certainly do however think the British govt. has over the years and centuries shown it has scant regard fo the irish people and dealing with them is like supping with devil, you need to use a looooong spoon.

and yes dissidents do pose some level of threat although at the minute a minor one as they lack any real organisation or planning and keep seeming to fracturing into ever smaller splinter groups.

As Jim says would it be acceptable if the Irish Defence Forces had crossed the border in pursuit of people or would you be pissed of at them trespassing on British sovreignty? The British Army Has NO place crossing the Irish border - it has done so and it has been tacitly ignored at times to avoid diplomatic imbroglios but there have also been occassions where British soldiers have been arrested over it. I've said before my father during his time in the Irish army met many British soldiers wandering around who claimed to be 'lost' often up to a dozen miles into Irish territory. Lost while equipped with detailed ordance survey maps it should be pointed out...