What in the Catholic mass is blasphemous?

[Wasp]

OK BA you said elsewhere that I took doctrine out of context and didnt understand it etc. So I am going to repost some of what I posted on this thread and please tell me what I took out of context.

1) Alfonsus de Liguori wrote a book 'The Glories of Mary' where he says says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. If this was not a view held by Rome then why did the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). His book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes.

2) Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.”

3) Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.”

4) Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (Catechism 490-492).

5) Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life. (Catechism 411, 493)

6) Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (Catechism 496-511)

7) In his book, Crossing The Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II tells his readers:

Totus Tuus (“I am completely yours O Mary”). This phrase is not only an expression of piety, or simply an expression of devotion. It is more. During the Second World War, while I was employed as a factory worker, I came to be attracted to Marian devotion. Thanks to Saint Louis of Montfort, I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric (Pope John Paul II 1994).

8) The Catholic devotional tells you to call on the name of Mary even with your last breath

9) According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary

10) Herer are a few of the 15 so called alledged promises by Mary to Chrisitians who recire the rosary.

1) Whoever shall faithfully serve Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.

2) I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.

5) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.

9) I shall deliver from purgatory, those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

14) All who recite the Rosary are My sons, and brothers of My only son Jesus Christ.

11) According to Canon 752, whenever the Pope or the college of bishops makes a declaration concerning faith or morals, Catholics are required to give "a religious submission of the intellect and will" to it. Furthermore, they must "take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it".

"If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, let him be anathema." (ibid., p. 53 -- Seventh Session, Sacrament Of Baptism, Canon 3)

"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema." (ibid., p. 52 -- Seventh Session, Sacraments In General, Canon 4)

An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin (Vol. 1, p.75).


Partial as well as plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer (Vol. 1, p.75).


The faithful who use with devotion an object of piety (crucifix, cross, rosary, scapular or medal) after it has been duly blessed by any priest, can gain a partial indulgence (Vol. 1, p.77).


...it [the Roman Catholic Church] condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them (Vol. 1, p.71).

PLEASE PLEASE tell me what I took out of context, I have quoted doctrine and the words of various popes etc.

[Wasp]

I alo backed my points by quoting the bible itself to counter these false doctirnes.

[Blue Angel]

Yes the Bible which the Catholic Church compiled for you to use. Most of the points on that list are classic examples of misconceptions about Catholics given the adoration reserved for God alone to Mary - giving adoration to ANYONE but God is specifically forbidden for Catholics. You are dealing with a perception of Mariolatry that is more real for you than for anyone Catholic.

Also if you are going to use the Bible in sola fide mode you will have the historical problem that the early Christians had no absolutely agreed on set of books that constituted a Bible - not all traditions of worth are to be found in the Bible.

[Wasp]

Oct 18, 2009 19:17:49 GMT Blue Angel said:

Yes the Bible which the Catholic Church compiled for you to use. Most of the points on that list are classic examples of misconceptions about Catholics given the adoration reserved for God alone to Mary - giving adoration to ANYONE but God is specifically forbidden for Catholics. You are dealing with a perception of Mariolatry that is more real for you than for anyone Catholic.

Also if you are going to use the Bible in sola fide mode you will have the historical problem that the early Christians had no absolutely agreed on set of books that constituted a Bible - not all traditions of worth are to be found in the Bible.

BA for starters the bible is the inspired word of God, protected by God and it has done so without doubt for centuries and will continue to do so.

I have clearly shown concrete proof of catholic doctrine etc to back what I said. There is no twisting out of this and trying to say these things mean something different.

Also I could not care less what faith you have and as you know I am strongly against the rcc doctinre etc, at the most I found it strange how anyone who cared to read the bible could fall for the loads of codswallop taught by the rcc with its various intorduced doctrines over the centuries. BUT now I cannot believe how any right thinking person could belong to a cult that carried out the horrors the rcc has and I am not meaning what they did centuries ago, I am talking about the present day and what has come out in recent years is only the tip of the ice berg IMHO.

[Blue Angel]

Indeed how could any Christian believe in a faith whose original founder was nailed to a cross as a convicted criminal and whose followes included prostitutes, what we would now see as terrorists, a traitor and several others who initially ran away once it looked like following Christ might involve having to get into some trouble.

If you are claiming the Bible is the inspired word of God then logically the Catholic Church was acting in God's name in deciding on which books would constitute it's canon? Of course as a Protestant you and I disagree on 7 books inclusion but even the KJV in it's original form featured the deteuro-canonical books as an appendix and I'd actually cite the KJV for been the most majestic and powerful English translation.

Indeed how could anyone be Christian could be asked considering the horrors all the denominations have carried out over the centuries.

[Royalist0007]

Blue Angel,
The Cult of Rome was never a genuine Christian church,nor can it ever be.

The oldest genuine Christian church still in existence is the Coptic Church,whose head is Pope Shenouda III,the Patriarch of Alexandria (a.k.a. the Pope of Egypt) (reigned since 1971).

The Coptic Church is in full communion with the Anglican Church even though it isn't a member of the Anglican Communion,considering that the Coptic Church is one of the Orthodox Churches.

The Coptic Church has expanded worldwide with dioceses & congregations in quite a few countries,including Australia,New Zealand,South Africa,& Great Britain.

Yes,Pope Shenouda III does travel worldwide like the Pope of Rome does.Unlike the Pope of Rome,the Pope of Egypt has visited New Zealand several times.

Aidan.

[Blue Angel]

Pope Shenouda you say? A man I have great respect for, who has to head a Church in very dififcult and awakward circumstances, the Coptic Church (btw there is also a Coptic Church in communion with Rome) you are refering to is part of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, they are not in full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches but have been discussing re-unification for many years now.

Pope Shenouda made serious strides along with Pope Paul VI in furthering better relations between the Catholic and Coptic Churches:-

COMMON DECLARATION
OF POPE PAUL VI AND OF
THE POPE OF ALEXANDRIA SHENOUDA III

Tower of St. John in the Vatican gardens




Paul VI, bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and patriarch of the See of St. Mark, give thanks in the Holy Spirit to God that, after the great event of the return of relics of St. Mark to Egypt, relations have further developed between the Churches of Rome and Alexandria so that they have now been able to meet personally together. At the end of their meetings and conversations they wish to state together the following:

We have met in the desire to deepen the relations between our Churches and to find concrete ways to overcome the obstacles in the way of our real cooperation in the service of our Lord Jesus Christ who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:18-20).

In accordance with our apostolic traditions transmitted to our Churches and preserved therein, and in conformity with the early three ecumenical councils, we confess one faith in the One Triune God, the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Word of God, the effulgence of His glory and the express image of His substance, who for us was incarnate, assuming for Himself a real body with a rational soul, and who shared with us our humanity but without sin. We confess that our Lord and God and Saviour and King of us all, Jesus Christ, is perfect God with respect to His Divinity, perfect man with respect to His humanity. In Him His divinity is united with His humanity in a real, perfect union without mingling, without commixtion, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without separation. His divinity did not separate from His humanity for an instant, not for the twinkling of an eye. He who is God eternal and invisible became visible in the flesh, and took upon Himself the form of a servant. In Him are preserved all the properties of the divinity and all the properties of the humanity, together in a real, perfect, indivisible and inseparable union.

The divine life is given to us and is nourished in us through the seven sacraments of Christ in His Church: Baptism, Chrism (Confirmation), Holy Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Matrimony and Holy Orders.

We venerate the Virgin Mary, Mother of the True Light, and we confess that she is ever Virgin, the God- bearer. She intercedes for us, and, as the Theotokos, excels in her dignity all angelic hosts.
I for one have no problems admitting the Coptic Church as a true Church.

And btw if one of your issues with the Catholic Church is (like WASP) perceived Mariolatry you should be aware the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox both believe in the parts about the Virgin I've bolded. WASP in fairness didn't reference Pope Shenouda or the Coptic Church but I know from past experiences of your posts Aidan that you find the reverence shown to Mary in the Catholic Church unseemly in your opinion.

[Wasp]

If you are claiming the Bible is the inspired word of God then logically the Catholic Church was acting in God's name in deciding on which books would constitute it's canon?

Err hardly, teh catholic church did not give us the bible, The process of writing and recognizing the New Testament books began long before the Roman Catholic Church even existed. The night before the Lord was crucified, He told His disciples that they, empowered by the Holy Spirit, would bear witness to His life and teaching:

The early Christians read, copied, and circulated the books widely. Teachers began to quote the books as authoritative in their own sermons and letters. Within the lifetime of the apostles, some of the writings were already considered God-given "wisdom" (2 Peter 3:15) on par with "the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16).

Indeed how could anyone be Christian could be asked considering the horrors all the denominations have carried out over the centuries.

Usual avoidance, when it comes to horrors past and present the catholic church is in a league of its own, but AS I SAID 'I am not meaning what they did centuries ago, I am talking about the present day and what has come out in recent years'.

So why talk about denominations over the centuries??

[Wasp]

We venerate the Virgin Mary, Mother of the True Light, and we confess that she is ever Virgin, the God- bearer. She intercedes for us, and, as the Theotokos, excels in her dignity all angelic hosts.

Any church or faith that believes in this and teaches this please please stay clear of.

Mary ISN'T mentioned in 22 out of 27 New Testament books! Not once are we ever instructed to pray or bow to Mary or her image.

Jesus said concerning the Apostate Jewish religion, "Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men ... Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition ... Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye" (Mark 6:6-8,13)

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8

Matthew 11:11 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -1st Timothy 2:5

John 14:6... "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The Biblical Mary was a horrible sinner (James 2:10), who needed a Savior (Luke 1:47), and told others to do what Jesus commanded (John 2:5). The Biblical Mary was not a Perpetual Virgin (Matthew 13:55-56), was not Immaculately Conceived (Romans 3:23), wasn't Bodily Assumed into Heaven (Hebrews 9:27), and she doesn't intercede on our behalf.

Hail Mary Hail satan

Here is a good example concerning venration of statues and pictures etc.

First a typical argument by a modern Catholic apologist;

Catholics do not worship the Cross or images or relics. They use these physical objects to remind themselves of Christ and his special friends, the saints in heaven. The man who keeps a picture of his family in his wallet does not worship his wife and children, but honours them. (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius, 1988, pp 40, 41.)

I have often been told that an image of Christ is like a picture of my wife that I keep in my wallet to remind me of her. But the analogy is misleading. The pictures of Christ are not really pictures of Christ; they are but the imagination of the artist. What is called “Christ” is not a likeness of Christ at all. My wife would not be particularly delighted if I keep a picture of another woman, kiss it, and call her my wife!

Moreover the popular argument is evasive and irrelevant; it does not do justice to the Catholic doctrine. It is claimed that “Catholics do not worship the Cross or images”, but St Thomas Aquinas states otherwise. “[The Cross] it is worshiped with the same adoration as Christ, viz. the adoration of latria.” And again, “we give the adoration of latria to the image of Christ” [8]

Catholics do not use images merely to “remind” themselves of Christ and the saints. There’s nothing wrong with having pictures and statues to remind us of King David or the apostle Paul. But that is beside the point. Catholics are called to do more than just remember. Catholics are called to kiss images and even to bow down before them.

“…because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear” (Council of Trent, Session 25, On the Invocation, Veneration, Relics of Saints, and Sacred Image.) [9]

God’s Law: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.”

[Royalist0007]

Wasp,
Romanism = Hell-bound idolatrous worshippers of the Pope of Rome!

The Romish practice of bowing down to statues & worshipping them dates from the later years of the Roman Empire (early 4th. Century).

Aidan.

[Republic]

Oct 18, 2009 19:17:49 GMT Blue Angel said:

Most of the points on that list are classic examples of misconceptions about Catholics given the adoration reserved for God alone to Mary - giving adoration to ANYONE but God is specifically forbidden for Catholics. You are dealing with a perception of Mariolatry that is more real for you than for anyone Catholic.
.

BA I want to question you on this point.
I know some catholics who pray to Mary as much as they pray to God. What do you mean by adoration exactly? And how does the Hail Mary prayer fit in with not adoring Mary.
It just doesn't add up for me.

Likewise the ascension of Mary into heaven. Am I correct in saying that is only recent doctrine/dogma/?

[Wasp]

Likewise the ascension of Mary into heaven. Am I correct in saying that is only recent doctrine/dogma/?

You are mate. it was 1950 but beofre that you would have been deemed heretic for believing such a notion, infact this happened to several popes who toyed with this idea, but after 1950 you would be deemed heretic.

Now to further on from your points republic and in reply to BA's nonesense claims here is some more on Mary worship.

The Church and the faithful for have also referred to Mary as queen since the fourth century. Various songs, litanies, and prayers refer to Mary as queen. (e.g. Regina Caeli during Eastertide.) The Church has affirmed the title of Mary in modern times through documents including Lumen Gentium (..."and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son" Lumen Gentium 59) and the papal encyclical Ad Coeli Reginam.

The title Queen is used to indicate the final state of the Virgin, seated beside her Son, the King of glory.

Queen of Heaven rejoice, alleluia

The Son whom you merited to bear alleluia

Has risen as he said alleluia

Pray for us to God alleluia

Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary, alleluia!

For the Lord has truly risen alleluia

www.catholic-forum.com/themes/coronation_of_mary.htm

John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."

Now wait to see this for a lot of sickening mockery of the Lord.

A prayer to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

O Most Blessed Mother, heart of love, heart of mercy, ever listening, caring, consoling, hear our prayer. As your children, we implore your intercession with Jesus your Son. Receive with understanding and compassion the petitions we place before you today, especially (special intention).

We are comforted in knowing your heart is ever open to those who ask for your prayer.

We trust to your gentle care and intercession, those whom we love and who are sick or lonely or hurting. Help all of us, Holy Mother, to bear our burdens in this life until we may share eternal life and peace with God forever. Amen.

Prayer of Our Lady of all Nations
Lord Jesus Christ Son of the Father,
Send now your Spirit over the earth.
Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations,
that they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war.
May the Lady of all Nations, who once was Mary be our advocate.Amen.

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace
It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

Prayer to Our Lady
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother. To you we come, before you we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in your mercy hear and answer us. Amen.

Prayer to Our Lady Immaculate
Most holy Virgin, who wast pleasing to the Lord and became His Mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on the wretched who implore thy powerful patronage. The wicked serpent, against whom was hurled the first curse, continues fiercely to attack and ensnare the unhappy children of Eve. Do thou, then, O Blessed Mother, our queen and advocate, who from the first instant of thy conception didst crush the head of the enemy, receive the prayers which, united with thee in our single heart, we implore thee to present at the throne of God, that we may never fall into the snares which are laid out for us, and may all arrive at the port of salvation; and, in so many dangers, may the Church and Christian society sing once again the hymn of deliverance and of victory and of peace. Amen.

In Thy conception, O Virgin Mary, thou wast immaculate; pray for us to the Father, Whose Son, Jesus Christ conceived of the Holy Ghost, thou didst bring forth.

And theres loads and loads and loads more daft and satanic prayers.

[Royalist0007]

Wasp,
When the current Pope of Rome was still a Cardinal,he gave a speech in 2000 that caused offence to both Anglicans & Lutherans,as he labelled the Protestant Churches,especially the Anglican Church & the Lutheran Church, as 'deficient'.

The one that is deficient is located not in Canterbury or Germany,but in the Vatican City in Rome!

The current Pope of Rome is also hated by Protestants,due to his links with the Nazis,as he was a member of that subhuman organisation that was the Hitler Youth,which taught him how to be a racist scumbag.

Aidan.

[Blue Angel]

Funny then how he wasn't hated by the previous pope who was of course Polish and fiercely anti-fascist...