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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 12, 2009 12:00:08 GMT
As I said I'm interested to know what Wasp finds blasphemous in the mass but it would have dragged the other thread off topic. A couple of ground rules first - let us please try and express ourselves politely as human beings. I think this discussion is probably of more interest to WASP and me than anyone else here but I would say for both he and I if he is interested in discussing it we could perhaps agree to mutually tell each other to calm down if one of us gets in a huff as I have a very sarcastic streak and WASP has a bit of a hot temper at times so we would serve the discussion better by trying to practise some charity.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 12, 2009 17:21:28 GMT
As I said I'm interested to know what Wasp finds blasphemous in the mass but it would have dragged the other thread off topic. A couple of ground rules first - let us please try and express ourselves politely as human beings. I think this discussion is probably of more interest to WASP and me than anyone else here but I would say for both he and I if he is interested in discussing it we could perhaps agree to mutually tell each other to calm down if one of us gets in a huff as I have a very sarcastic streak and WASP has a bit of a hot temper at times so we would serve the discussion better by trying to practise some charity. I couldnt agree more BA and I would also like to say that any post I make here is not to insult anyone or any faith, it is simply a matter of me giving my opinion and why I hold these opinions, also please lets not forget that I have stated many times before that I debate and have more disagreement with certain 'Protestant' church members than I have with catholics although I would have more to disagree with in the catholic faith than their particular brand of faith. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 12, 2009 17:28:38 GMT
Buggering wee boys in the name of Jesus.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 12, 2009 17:35:33 GMT
Now BA where do we start, do we start with statues, false idols, Mary worship, communion, prayers for the dead etc etc??
Well I will open with the fact I cannot attend any place of worship where that place believes a human is the vicar of Christ on earth and where this same role model has added many many unbiblical doctrines and practices, where people believe the pope is the closest to Christ, where the pope can send people to hell, where the pope can grant less time in that myth of a place called purgatory etc. Does anyone honestly believe that the Catholic church would have been the one chosen church by the Lord to teach God's word considering this same church has killed millions both indeirectly and directly, the same church that protected those who commited the most horrendous of crimes against children and the most vulnerable in our society?? The answer to that for me would be a massive NO, so lets start with various parts of attending a service in a Catholic church.
I think Mary worship would be a good place to start, if you disagree then no problem BA.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 12, 2009 17:56:12 GMT
I was once told that I didnt believe in Mary by a catholic so I asked him did Joseph give birth to Jesus. ;D ;D Anyway here are my problems with Mary worship. Some claim that it is not Mary worship but the following certainly seems like a form of worship to me. “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.” Alfonsus de Liguori wrote a book 'The Glories of Mary' where he says says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. If this was not a view held by Rome then why did the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). His book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” The Bible shows that Mary misunderstood Jesus’ calling to the point that she thought He was insane and she tried to prevent Jesus from doing what God wanted Him to do. “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.” (Mark 3:31-35) Below is official catholic doctrine against the bible on Mary. 1) Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (Catechism 490-492). Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior. 2) Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life. (Catechism 411, 493) Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”. (Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless and Sinless people do not need a Savior) In Revelations when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5) 3) Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (Catechism 496-511) Matthew 1:24-25 says, “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” “Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.) Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, “And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?” Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19. The New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. Well hope thats a start.  |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 12, 2009 18:59:06 GMT
It is -many of these points are misapprhensions of what Catholics believe. If you allow me a chance to help the missus with something here I'll address them.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 12, 2009 19:15:03 GMT
It is -many of these points are misapprhensions of what Catholics believe. If you allow me a chance to help the missus with something here I'll address them. I would like to hear your explanations as I have had quite a few catholics say the same but the catholic church says and states different. |
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Post by earl on Jul 13, 2009 8:40:41 GMT
Does anyone honestly believe that the Catholic church would have been the one chosen church by the Lord to teach God's word considering this same church has killed millions both indeirectly and directly Now now WASP, RC is not the only religion to have killed millions. Every religion is involved in death. I don't know one which isn't. From the Spanish inquisition and the destruction of the natives in latin America by the RC church, through to the atrocities of Emipre caused by beliefs in lost tribes, manifest destiny and eugenics of the Victorian period for Protestantism. No religion is free from murder and those who use it to gain wealth and power. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 13, 2009 16:59:07 GMT
Does anyone honestly believe that the Catholic church would have been the one chosen church by the Lord to teach God's word considering this same church has killed millions both indeirectly and directly Now now WASP, RC is not the only religion to have killed millions. Every religion is involved in death. I don't know one which isn't. From the Spanish inquisition and the destruction of the natives in latin America by the RC church, through to the atrocities of Emipre caused by beliefs in lost tribes, manifest destiny and eugenics of the Victorian period for Protestantism. No religion is free from murder and those who use it to gain wealth and power. Earl you have completely missed my point which annoys me. Would the Lord give his church to any church like Rome considering the crimes they have committed, the millions killed because of them and the fact the most precious of all, children who were systematically abused throughout the world by the catholic church and its workers?? As Jesus famously said 'suufer little children and come onto me' which speaks volumes whether or not Rome would have been handed the keys as they alledge with an alledgedly unbroken line of popes. Now earl that was the only thing you could pick up on and that is not debating the topic here, it is simply nicpicking and doesnt contribuate to a thread where the opening posts show the way we want this thread to go. Nicpicking is not one of them. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 13, 2009 17:31:17 GMT
Back on topic. Blueangel here is something else I would like you to address for me, sorry if I am bombarding too much onto you but I am as interested in your response as I am in anyone elses that I have debated this with.
In his book, Crossing The Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II tells his readers:
Totus Tuus (“I am completely yours O Mary”). This phrase is not only an expression of piety, or simply an expression of devotion. It is more. During the Second World War, while I was employed as a factory worker, I came to be attracted to Marian devotion. Thanks to Saint Louis of Montfort, I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric (Pope John Paul II 1994).
The catholic church has given Mary many names such as "Mother of God;" "Queen of Seraphim, of Saints, and of Prophets;" "Advocate of Sinners;" "Refuge of Sinners;" "Gate of Heaven;" "Morning Star;" "Queen of Heaven", "Most Holy Mary", "Most Merciful", "Most faithfull" etc. The whole psalter of David has been transformed by Bonaventura to the invocation of Mary, by erasing the name of Jehovah, and substituting that of the Virgin. We give an example of the work:--"In thee, O Lady, have I put my trust: let me never be ashamed: in thy grace uphold me." "Unto thee have I cried, O Mary, when my heart was in heaviness; and thou hast heard me from the top of the everlasting hills." "Come unto Mary, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and she shall refresh your souls."
The Catholic devotional tells you to call on the name of Mary even with your last breath. But that is not what the Bible tells us. “salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
Now this is something that I find hard tobelieve that people actually believe the following nonesense which is unbiblical and if anything it is satanism.
According to Our Lady of Fatima (whose teachings are officially sanctioned by the Vatican), a person can obtain eternal life through Mary by reciting the Rosary., especially considering the Bible says "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Herer are a few of the 15 so called alledged promises by Mary to Chrisitians who recire the rosary.
1) Whoever shall faithfully serve Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2) I promise My special protection and the greatest graces to all who shall recite the Rosary.
5) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
9) I shall deliver from purgatory, those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
14) All who recite the Rosary are My sons, and brothers of My only son Jesus Christ.
Jesus never directed us to recognize Mary. In fact, the Bible clearly states in Matthew 11:11 that there has never been a child born amongst women greater than John the Baptist. John the Baptist prepared the people for the coming of the Savior Jesus Christ
"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus").
Yet Pope John Paul II said ... "Our Lady of the Rosary was acclaimed as the one whose intercession brought salvation."
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 13, 2009 21:10:06 GMT
Okay WASP let me deal with as much as I can tonight - as an aside before I start using the actions of particular individuals within a Church's history to slate it is unrewarding. As Earl points out it is equally easy to throw that at many organised religous groups - even groups such as Buddhists you might think immune from fanaticisim are not when you research them thoroughly. You have no problem WASP following Christ, yet he was a Jew and the Bible itself shows the Jews sometimes engaged in actions which would horrify us today.
This whole point about Catholics worshipping Mary is tedious. I myself never went for Marian devotion much - it's an individual choice any Catholic is free to make - my father would be the man to see for that. What Catholics are required to believe as Dogma is that Mary was sinless, a perpetual virgin and was assummed into heaven. The Eastern Orthodox Churches believe roughly the same although they have never codfied it so absolutely and their position on her assumption into heaven is somewhat different.
You mentioned Christ's brothers -the actual word used in koine Greek is adelphoi - that is NOT a word that merely means brother, it was used to refer to differing types of male relatives. Catholic and Orthodox understanding is that after God had rested his spirit upon Mary for mortal man to do so via sex would be itself blasphemous and presumptous.
Secondly, YES many Catholic books/cathecisms etc. DO talk of worshipping Mary. The problem is the er, unscruplous end of the evangelical movement light upon that to show how Catholics worship her as a Goddess. We don't - I'll find you the part of the cathecism where that is strictly forbidden. The problem is compounded because worship has come to mean worship of God, Catholics can only give adoration to God which is what you mean when you use the term worship.
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
This is intercessory prayer - a subject of much thorny debate -some Protestant groups like certain sections of the Lutheran Church engage in it still btw. The Catholic and again Orthodox understanding is that we are asking our mother in heaven to pray on our behalf. I myself btw don't use intercessory prayer -but not because I think it is wrong, it just doesn't suit my mode of prayer.
Mary most definitely needed a saviour - I have never heard anyone Catholic or Protestant argue otherwise - perhaps one of the better ways of putting it I have encountered is that it helps if you view Mary as a second Eve and Christ as a second Adam (but obviously also rather more than that). Mary is not a Goddess, she has no power of her own, any more than did the apostles.
Let me borrow from the Easter Catholic Church (which is still part of the Catholic Church btw) they share an idea with the Eastern Orthodox that may interest you. Theosis - this is the view that all human beings are struggling to grow closer to their creator and emulate him, as God is infinite they will never completely succeed but the Eastern Catholic view is that of all human beings Mary came closest.
You will find no defence of crimes committed by Catholic leaders throughout the century - but I will ask this - in the Bible if you look at the company of men Christ gathered around him you wouldn't find them that impressive if you were to only judge them as men see them. Fishermen, publicans, two who betray, one who commits suicide over this, a confirmed sceptic, a man who killed Christ's early followers in an astonishingly cruel and fanatical way etc. etc.
You are using a sola scriptura model I see to back your points -this is inherently flawed as it ignores the reality of what Christians did without a central canon of books for the first 300 or so years of the Church. The canon you do have is compiled by Catholics (although again the EO might argue that with you given the schism between the two in the 11th century*) historically and only differs insomuch that Luther and others removed certain books they felt were inspired but not totally divine. The Catholic and Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churchs do not rely on a totally sola scriptura model and for them tradition also plays a part in defining their understanding of Christianity.
I btw totally understand the absolute anger and disgust many people are feeling right now about the Church in Ireland and how the Church handles it will largely determine whether it regains any respect.
A couple of other points - the infamous quote about 'All have come short of the Glory of God" - all, including Jesus himself then? This is the problem with using that particular quote in the context you do so I find. Also Christ as the lamb of God was the only one who could break the seal in revelations, so invoking Mary is moot here again because no-one Catholic has ever argued Mary is divine.
You are aware many of the early reformatiojn figures such as Luther, Calvin etc. had views of Mary you would yourself find blaspemous?
You mention Ligouri - I've read him, I found him a bit over the top to be honest and for you as a Protestant with suspicions about Mariolatry I imagine you were not impressed by him. He is trying to make a point that by knowing Mary you may come to Christ by appreciating her role in his life but he frequently oversteps the mark and his prose is er a bit flowery to say the least.
As I am tired we will end there for today though and I will try to write more tomorrow or Wednesday. If any of this sounds sarcastic it is due to the inherent limitations of the internet when discussing difficult subjects like this (no tone of voice etc) and the fact I am a bit tired out today.
*The Orthodox hold we are in schism with them, the Catholics hold the same view with regards to them - additionally the Orthodox would say they were the original Church founded by Christ and that we departed via unorthodox beliefs, although they still acknowledge the Pope as a Patriach - just not as overall head of the Church.
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Post by earl on Jul 14, 2009 12:44:03 GMT
Now now WASP, RC is not the only religion to have killed millions. Every religion is involved in death. I don't know one which isn't. From the Spanish inquisition and the destruction of the natives in latin America by the RC church, through to the atrocities of Emipre caused by beliefs in lost tribes, manifest destiny and eugenics of the Victorian period for Protestantism. No religion is free from murder and those who use it to gain wealth and power. Earl you have completely missed my point which annoys me. Would the Lord give his church to any church like Rome considering the crimes they have committed, the millions killed because of them and the fact the most precious of all, children who were systematically abused throughout the world by the catholic church and its workers?? As Jesus famously said 'suufer little children and come onto me' which speaks volumes whether or not Rome would have been handed the keys as they alledge with an alledgedly unbroken line of popes. Now earl that was the only thing you could pick up on and that is not debating the topic here, it is simply nicpicking and doesnt contribuate to a thread where the opening posts show the way we want this thread to go. Nicpicking is not one of them. You're right WASP, I completely missed your point. Fair enough. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 14, 2009 14:00:14 GMT
BA sorry to disagree but this was not the actions of individuals, these were the actions of the church with the churchs blessing. Regarding the Jews do the Jewish church headquarters claim to be what the catholic church claims?? But again that is missing my point, would the Lord give any church sole responsibility of his gospel to a church that has behaved like the catholic church??
Thsi is man made doctrine BA and before 1950 (I think) when the dogma of her assumption came into place it was deemed heretic to believe such a notion, now it is believed heretic not to believe it. These beliefs are unbiblical and do nothing more than difflect the glory of our Lord in all his greatness. The Biblical Mary was not a Perpetual Virgin (Matthew 13:55-56), was not Immaculately Conceived (Romans 3:23), wasn't Bodily Assumed into Heaven (Hebrews 9:27), and she doesn't intercede on our behalf (1st Timothy 2:5... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"). This is exactly what Jesus said concerning the Apostate Jewish religion, "Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men ... Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition ... Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye" (Mark 6:6-8,13) The Catholic Church is a prisonhouse of religion!
Romans 5:12 clearly indicts Mary as a sinner, "Wherefore, as by one man Adam sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Jesus was the ONLY sinless human being ever born (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15), because He had NO earthly father (Isaiah 7:14). How could Mary, who had a sinful earthly father, be born without a sin-nature?
In Matthew 11:11 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Who did Jesus say was the greatest? ... Mary? No, John the Baptist.
Completely disagree, there are numerous pictures of catholics bowing down to statues of Mary, numerous prayers and Rome sanctioned all of this. When pope JP II was shot he prayed to Mary, he made a pilgrimage to thank her etc so what is this telling his followers, what message is this sending across. In the bible Mary never invited sinners to come to her for salvation.
BA there is no getting away from this prayer or other such prayers and you just cant pick and choose what parts of a fith you agree or disagree with. You do know it is a sin to deny or disbelieve any catholic doctrine. John Paul II issued a new edition of Roman Catholic Canon Law. According to Canon 752, whenever the Pope or the college of bishops makes a declaration concerning faith or morals, Catholics are required to give "a religious submission of the intellect and will" to it. Furthermore, they must "take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it".
"If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, let him be anathema." (ibid., p. 53 -- Seventh Session, Sacrament Of Baptism, Canon 3)
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema." (ibid., p. 52 -- Seventh Session, Sacraments In General, Canon 4)
An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin (Vol. 1, p.75).
Partial as well as plenary indulgences can always be applied to the dead by way of prayer (Vol. 1, p.75).
The faithful who use with devotion an object of piety (crucifix, cross, rosary, scapular or medal) after it has been duly blessed by any priest, can gain a partial indulgence (Vol. 1, p.77).
...it [the Roman Catholic Church] condemns with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them (Vol. 1, p.71).
Yes she did need a saviour but catholic doctrine states that she has power of her own and even if it was just having power but not on her own it is still unbiblical and contrary to the gospel.
Again this is the virews of man this is not biblical so it doesnt matter what people claim or what any church claims.
I think you are twisting things here BA.
My faith is based on the bible, not the differing opinions of lustful and greedy men trhoughout the centuries regardless of what church they claim to represent. For example why would any church have pricelss paintings, expensive jewellery and ornamental figures decorated in gold etc when Christ was opposed to these things.
Not only in Ireland BA, but throughout the world.
Considering Jesus is part of the trinity then it cannot include him.
I am but I do not care of the opinions of men that are unbibnlical and transfer worship from God to false idols and those with no power. Mary worship is the same as Goddess worship.
Take a look at the Catholc Mary and then the Goddess.
The Pope officially gave Mary the title "Queen of Heaven" and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven. Wiccans call their goddess the "Queen of Heaven".
"Glorious Assumption" (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).
Goddesses don't die.
"Immaculate Conception" (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and "All-Holy" (Mary lived a sinless life). Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules.
Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head. Moon goddess.
Apparitions of "Mary" have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas).
ok
I am not taking any of your points as being sarcastic, I do not agree with them but I respect your right to believe them and practice them.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 15, 2009 21:28:29 GMT
I haven't forgotten this thread WASP - just insanely busy at work till Saturday evening and I will then try to answer it properly.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 15, 2009 23:05:10 GMT
I haven't forgotten this thread WASP - just insanely busy at work till Saturday evening and I will then try to answer it properly. No problems mate, sorry if my posts are a bit loaded. Also I would prefer us not to get bogged down on the one subject, but we should continue this topic until we agree to disagree then move on. |
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