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Post by collina on May 1, 2009 12:21:55 GMT
. So what do Unionits here think? Ah come on now, Setanta. You're having us on surely..... |
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2009 15:41:25 GMT
Its interesting to read that because he brings up some fair points that can be used for Irish nationalism as well. The Britishness our Waspy talks about barely exists anymore. Northern Ireland has ALWAYS been behind in the times compared to the rest of Britain, it was the last part of the UK that still used capital punishment, religious dogma was rife, bigotry, secterianism and racism was in plain view every day when Britain was bringing in anti discrination practises in England and Scotland, and something that "mainland" British people find extremely perculiar is that Irish unionists for the most part don't see themselves as Irish, just "British" which goes against the very fundamental meaning of Britishness. I've met and worked with protestants who said they see themselves as Irish and it is not mutually exclusive to Britishness, they told me that Irish culture is as much theirs as it is mine and only their politics was different to mine, thats all that seperated me and them. Britain has moved on, Britishness is no longer about religion or being white but is now a mix of cultures from the old Empire, this time Britishness could not take what they liked from the Empire and disregard what they didnt like, immigration to Britain has brought about the good and the bad of other cultures and is now recognised as the new Britishness; this has not happened in Northern Ireland, and once again Northern Ireland will be hugely behind the times until it does happen, so much so it WILL threaten the union, I have no doubt whatsoever about that. Also, what I've found is that most Northerners have more in common with the Scottish than they do with the English. This is not simply Celtic traditions which are in some ways part of the unionist culture but the fact that the plantations were mainly Scottish of origin. Theres little difference between Glasgow and Belfast but there is a world of difference between London and Belfast. We speak the same language, eat the same food, and have more in common with Londoners than we do with Berliners but thats where it ends. It would be very wise for the future of "ulster" culture to embrace its Irishness to ensure its survival, but I'm 100% certain our resident ardent unionist git Wasp will tear me apart for saying that as he has no interest in his Irishness  Unionism itself is not a culture. Its a political semi-ideology just as Republicanism is, neither are set cultures, Irishness never has and never will only include nationalists and republicans, it has always been about anyone born on this island and that is definitely the opinion of most enthusiasts of Irish culture, music, language, etc including myself. A unionist has more in common with me, a Belfast born Republican, than they do with someone from Birmingham, people over here are for the most part extremely ignorant about the backwater corner of their country, its very alien to them. If I was given a quid for everytime I've had an ignorant comment or a "I couldnt give a fuck about NI" from an Englishman I would be a very rich man. The only people who have referred to me as "Northern Irish" are lecturers, who have admitted to me in private when going over any coursework I've written on the politics of NI is that unionism and republicanism are dying breeds in the face of the EU which will make them irrelevant to ANYTHING in the next 20 years. One lecturer who did his masters and PhD on Irish politics specifically told me that wether or not the union survives is not up to people from Ireland, but from the Scottish. The second they pull out of the union, they won't want a union with Northern Ireland, and neither will England, the only way Northern Ireland can survive if that happens is a union with the Republic, in effect a united Ireland with autonomous regions the way the Basque country operates today. Take what you will from that. |
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Post by Wasp on May 1, 2009 18:16:13 GMT
Jim I know quite a few people who say they are Irish but also British. To do with Irishness I see Irishness as representative of the ira or maybe that should be the other way around. As I already explained before the tri-colour in the republic doesnt fizz on me but the tri-colour up here symbolizes the ira and that is much of my thinking to do with Irishness. Concerning Irishness for me 2 of my nieces were well into their Irish dancing and took part in various music festivals, 1 in particular done very well at Irish dancing and I went to see her and support her at these events. As far as music is concerned 1 of my favourite songs is Lovely leitrim shore and when I am drunk which is quite often I have my music blaring with many Irish country/love songs along with country and western, bit of dance and a few loyalist ballads. I have no problem with that side of Irishness but concerning people thinkiong most Unionists would view themselves as Irish etc is completely wrong.  |
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2009 19:42:51 GMT
Most unionists I know found their Irishness when they moved out of the bubble.
Irishness equating the IRA is a bit dumbfounded tbh, that would be like me saying Britishness represents the UVF, it clearly doesnt. What paramilitaries do is of no bearing to the long standing Irish history and culture that you're part of, and that I'm part of, and what the British Government sees you are part of. If anything unionists are the preferred choice of the British government to label Irish. You cant have Britishness without Irishness, it is part of the unions history, as much as Scottishness or Englishness.
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Post by Wasp on May 1, 2009 20:06:19 GMT
I don't deny any Irish connection say when Ireland as a whole was under British rule and under such I would have no problem saying I am Irish and also British. But not now, I am British end of, I may have Irish connections but I will never say that I am Irish because I am not Irish. If I lived in Ireland I believe I would feel alien to some extent because of history and current situation concerning those who currently live in the republic with that old keep your heads down and say nothing. Hope you understand what I mean.
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Post by Wasp on May 1, 2009 22:25:45 GMT
You do live in Ireland............. did you move? I do not live in Ireland, I live in N.Ireland. Now if you want to continue a debate about where you think I live or what my identity is etc then go ahead but I will not be getting involved in it as it just goes down the road of finger pointing and childish debate. I am back here to debate, put forward my case and that of my community, to listen, to learn, to agree, to disagree etc. So far I have not risen to or at least I have tried not to rise to smart arsed remarks, provocotive posts and downright rudeness and I hope to continue with this. Another reason or part of the reason is my repsect for my old enemy Earl who has stood out and stood above such styles of debate and I am trying to be fair to him and keep up with him. I expect Earl to put me back inline if I step out of it. |
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Post by Jim on May 1, 2009 22:53:14 GMT
I forgot that Northern Ireland was pulled away from the rest of the island and floated up to where Iceland is.
Ireland is Ireland mate, its an island.
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Post by Wasp on May 2, 2009 14:29:48 GMT
It is an island with 2 countries on it and 1 of those countries is where I was born and bred and that is N.Ireland. Hell would freeze over before I would say I am from Ireland.
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Post by collina on May 2, 2009 15:58:12 GMT
It is an island with 2 countries on it and 1 of those countries is where I was born and bred and that is N.Ireland. Hell would freeze over before I would say I am from Ireland. WASP, where was your Great-Grandfather born and bred (if you don't mind me asking). |
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Post by Jim on May 2, 2009 16:38:34 GMT
It is an island with 2 countries on it and 1 of those countries is where I was born and bred and that is N.Ireland. Hell would freeze over before I would say I am from Ireland. It is firstly an island, the island is geographically recognised as Ireland. There is no country or stated recognised as Ireland. You are from Ireand, Europe, and the United Kingdom, thats not opinion, thats a geographical fact unless you manage to seperate Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland with water. Until then it is Ireland, an island with two states, cant get any fairer than that. IMO your opposition to the slightest idea of yourself and Irishness is very out-dated, and its certainly not how your British brothers see it unless they buy into Unionist politics, which the vast majority couldn't give a flying fuck about. I don't have the same opposition concerning me and Britain or Britishness, if I can figure out what Britishness actually is, Gordon Browns having a hard enough time describing it! You seem to take Irishness as an offense to your nationality and culture which you say is British, yet Britishness cannot be created without Irishness, it spent 200 something years in the union and a much longer time before that as a colony, you can't erase that from your identity in a couple of years. The English dont. Unless your immediate family links are from another island then you're a paddy just like me. And even then, you were born and bred in the same city as I was. Irish culture is as much yours as it is mine and it will be there long after you and I are dead and buried, its a shame you want nothing to do with it. Irish poets, musicians, politicians, artists, writers, have had as much part to play in the British culture you recognise (yet imo no longer exists anywhere else in britain according to my experience here) as the English and Scottish, without theorists like Burke you would have little have progressive thought regarding the very principals that the current British system survives on and in which they built an empire and commonwealth on, he was Irish born. Do not confuse Irish Republicanism for Irish culture, they are not the same. One is an expression of political ideals and the other is an expression of who you are and where you come from, wether or not you are a unionist or not is irrelevant in the bigger picture. We would do well as a people to forget that shite and move on by acceptance instead of ignorance. |
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Post by Wasp on May 2, 2009 20:03:02 GMT
It is an island with 2 countries on it and 1 of those countries is where I was born and bred and that is N.Ireland. Hell would freeze over before I would say I am from Ireland. WASP, where was your Great-Grandfather born and bred (if you don't mind me asking). I dont mind at all, which one though?? 1 was born in Donegal, 1 in Ballymena, 1 in Broughshane,1 in England. |
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Post by Wasp on May 2, 2009 20:14:09 GMT
I never have and never will refer to the island of Ireland.
Disagree.
I think you have misunderstood what I said concerning Irishness. I totally disagree with your assumption that Britishness cannot be created without Irishness, are you saying Irishness cannot be created without Britishness??
Again I disagree, British culture is as much yours as it is mine but that does not mean people who oppose British culture have to accept it, same for me. What exactly is Irish culture and then I can point out the things I feel part of and the parts I dont feel part of. I know my community in the south dont feel very included, they feel seperate and do not feel part of a so called inclusive society where there culture and way of life has been frowned upon and attacked. There may be a few exceptions but I think the fact that catholics continued to move up here and settle here, yet Portestants fled the south is proof of which country was the worse for the minority faith.
When I see the tri-colour flown in republican areas which supported the ira, where most ira members came from then that flag symbolizes the ira in N.Ireland. When I see street signs in Irish in republican areas and hear republicans on tv etc bleat on about the Irish language then I see that as another symbol of republicanism. In the republic this would not be the case for me so I hope you understand what I am saying.
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Post by Wasp on May 2, 2009 20:15:03 GMT
I have never questioned your identity WASP. I have simply pointed out that you live in Ireland. It's a statement of undeniable fact unless you can provide me with a geographical (as opposed to political) alternative, which I just can't fathom? I live in N.Ireland, not Ireland. |
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Post by Jim on May 2, 2009 23:16:44 GMT
While people such as yourself cannot refer to that island as Ireland then the longer trouble will continue and the more divisions will continue. What is Britishness to you, then? I can describe what Irishness is in very rich detail, your own Prime Minister cannot begin to describe what Britishness is. I don't like I have misunderstood what you said about Irishness, I think you misunderstand what Irishness is. And yes, I am saying Irishness cannot be created without Britishness. Britain occupied Ireland for many centuries and we eventually become part of the union, its impossible to erase Britishness from Irishness. And its impossible to erase Irishness from Britishness. Irishness is one of the founding cultures of Britain as you know it today. That British culture is changing as we spoke about it on the topic regarding racism. Its yet to really effect Northern Ireland but when it does Unionism will find itself lost if it cannot find its Irishness. Yes. British culture is as much mine as it is yours and I readily accept it; Culture is not Politics. My politics dffer from yours which is very obious, my culture does not, apart from the parts you dont want to know about. What is Irishness? Irishness to me is about everyone born on that island, the language (and I'll address that point later on), the music, the popular culture of it, the humour which isnt understood anywhere else in the world, its friendship with many countries, its way of life which is part of a greater western european way of life, its influence on other cultures most of all Britain, the mentality of the Irish people, its horrible cuisine, its drink, being at the forefront of political theory and the principals of democracy as we know it today, its sporting culture, the many Irish footballers that have become legends in England and Scotland, fuck me I could go on. Its rich history that has went on since the egyptions were building pyramids, the old religions and the new religions it has adopted over the many centuries; Irishness never has and never will be divided by a political border. Irishness is beyond politics. Don't disregard this as simply bullshit, I want a good reply from you for this paragraph there is a lot to be talked about. I don't know what yo ufeel part of an what you don't. but the consistent message from you is politics. You equate Irish culture with the IRA, and its a very unfair point of view, I do not equate British culture with the UVF or with Maggie Thatcher, or even its empire, I dont identify with those things, I look at what I do identify with. You use the Republic of Ireland as a benchmark for what unification would really be like; tell me this, do you feel Northern Nationalists felt included in Northern Ireland for 80 something years? Even these days we don't feel that much included even though things have gotten much better, but we work through it and are very open to talking with your lot to make life better. The Republic has its problems and its injustices, its simply another state. Maybe my ideal of a united Ireland is unrealistic but I would hope it would do a better job for the Irish people (that includes unionists big time) than the Republic currently does. Make no mistake about it I am not in favour or simply going under Cowen's rule. You see the tricolour in Republican areas, as in the area I grew up in, as an IRA flag. In the North it may be so in some cases, we fly that flag as a simple of unification and an expression of our political ideas. I couldnt give a shite about the tricolour, I took mine down a long time ago and havent flown it since. As a fluent speaker of the Irish language it slightly offends me that you put it in the same sentence as the IRA. When I was very young I supported the IRA, I grew up in the mid 80s and in the 90s shouting IRA, up until I was about 20 I fully supported armed campaign, I never properly made friends with a protestant until I went to tech and after that I moved to England and made a lot of Irish friends who were protestant, I've as many Irish friends who are protestant loyalist than I do who are nationalist or catholic. Do I equate them with the UVF? No. Why do you equate the language I grew up speakin with the IRA and ignore its significance on our culture and indeed on the English language itself? The Irish language is not to be used for politics, not by the IRA, not by Sinn Fein, not by you, and not by me. I'm proud of the language and I'm re-learning the vocabularly I forgotten after 6 something years of not speaking it properly. Its part of my heritage, my culture, and yours too as someone who grew up on the island of Ireland. I sort of understand your opposition to the tricolour but not in the Republic, it is the official flag of the republic and internationally recognised as so but not the case in Northern Ireland. Maybe you should look at WHY people fly that flag in Northern Ireland. It is NOT support for the IRA but belief that Ireland should be united, the actual meaning to the flag symbolises the unification of both Irish communities, and although I remember you disputing that meaning, it is the very reason the flag was created, it was influenced by the French revolution back in 18'something for that purpose. Today it means something a bit different and its official use by the Republic (which believe it or not the IRA oppose the use of by the southern state) maybe has downgraded that a bit. Either way, I see no arguement against your Irishness apart from "I dont want to be part of THAT LOT". Protestant unionists up until the troubles or the 50s at least had a very strong belief in their Irishness, the father of Northern Ireland James Craig was a very vocal Irishman. Historical protestants such as Burke and Oscar Wilde were very vocal of their Irishness, the idea that protestants are simply British is firstly against the very principals of Britishness, and secondly something that came up as a reaction to the IRA. Believe what you want, I can accept my Britishness and move forward to make the bubble that is NI a better place, you could at least try. And finally, when you go up the falls to do volunteer work with drug addicts, do you see your own people? or do you see foreigners? They are Irish. I'm on this website to firstly learn about unionists, something my protestant friends dont like to talk about and visa versa, we avoid the subject, and secondly to make my own opinions clear and get a true understanding. That charity worker in East Belfast a few topics back and brings East Belfast kids into the south, is he exposing them to a foreign people or to his own people that divisions have seperated? I would say he is trying to build bridges on the unifications of the Irish people and understanding of seperate sub-cultures (and keep in mind that means NOTHING about the border). Its clear he feels affinity with the Irish people and wants to show young protestant kids that they are as Irish as the people of the Falls and the people of Monaghan. To me he is one of those people that truely understands Irish culture and he is doing more good than any Shinner or DUPer could hope to do, or than I could ever hope to achieve if I went home and tried the same thing. |
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Post by Wasp on May 3, 2009 12:09:59 GMT
Jim when I get time later I will respond, but in the meantime if setanta and afd etc say that that their culture is made up of Britishness then I will certainly say my culture is amde up of Irishness ;D ;D ;D
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