Establishment Unionist Calls for United Ireland

[collina]

May 3, 2009 12:09:59 GMT Wasp said:

Jim when I get time later I will respond, but in the meantime if setanta and afd etc say that that their culture is made up of Britishness then I will certainly say my culture is amde up of Irishness ;D ;D ;D

Our culture is partially British. We speak English(very often of a higher quality than the average Englishman) we travel to watch Premiership/SPL games in droves. We listen the English rock bands and far prefer British comedy to American comedy. Our manners are the very same as you'll find anywhere in Britain. We socialize the same way and our law is based on British law.

I consider myself 100% Irish but my home-page is the BBC web site. I shop at Tescos, HMV and other British owned stores. I don't think many Irish would deny that Britain left its mark in our culture.

By the way WASP, the reason I asked about your relatives is that, they would have been raised when the Union was "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which was the formal name and the state form of the United Kingdom from 1 January 1801 until 12 April 1927.

Now unless they were raised in the neighbouring Island of Great Britain, the only other alternative was Ireland. Thats not my opinion by the way, it was the law of the land. Quite how Belfast could be in Ireland one minute and not in Ireland not the next baffles me.

WASP what accent do you speak with?

[Wasp]

Our culture is partially British. We speak English(very often of a higher quality than the average Englishman) we travel to watch Premiership/SPL games in droves. We listen the English rock bands and far prefer British comedy to American comedy. Our manners are the very same as you'll find anywhere in Britain. We socialize the same way and our law is based on British law.

I do listen to alot of Irish music such as foster and allen, bernard henry, big tom, the dubliners amongst others and I do have a few rebel songs. ;D Concerning comedy well father ted is one of my favourites but apart from that I do not watch any programmes on rte etc as I find them boring to be honest apart from strike it lucky which I watch now and again.

I consider myself 100% Irish but my home-page is the BBC web site. I shop at Tescos, HMV and other British owned stores. I don't think many Irish would deny that Britain left its mark in our culture.

Fair enough but what part of Ireland has left its mark on me concerning culture??

By the way WASP, the reason I asked about your relatives is that, they would have been raised when the Union was "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which was the formal name and the state form of the United Kingdom from 1 January 1801 until 12 April 1927.

I knew that.

Now unless they were raised in the neighbouring Island of Great Britain, the only other alternative was Ireland. Thats not my opinion by the way, it was the law of the land. Quite how Belfast could be in Ireland one minute and not in Ireland not the next baffles me.

That was before partition,. since partition I am from N.Ireland which if I am being honest is a name that should never have been used, British Ulster is my preferred name and I do use that name at times.

WASP what accent do you speak with?

Most people I meet or talk to think I am Scottish. What difference does an accent make?? I am sticking with Ullish

[Wasp]

Here is something I found elsewhere which was wrote in 1939.

'The nominal basis of the agitation, the fact which causes some to denominate Ireland an oppressed nation and others to call her a British colony, is the British occupation of six counties of Ulster. In the agitation of the nationalists, Ulster is represented as a child torn from its mother's bosom, longing to return, and thwarted only by superior force.

In actuality, two-thirds of the population of Ulster is Protestant and British. Far from desiring union with Ireland, the Ulstonians (or Orangemen) are fanatically anti-Irish, and are ready to resist Irish ‘reunification’ with gun in hand. The demand of the Irish that Britain withdraw her garrison from Ulster is not the demand for the self-determination of an oppressed people; it is a demand for a hunting license to shoot Protestants. The Irish are here fighting a wholly reactionary struggle against the principle of self-determination.'

[An Fear Dubh]

While I would dispute the opinions quoted from 1939. It does give me a starting point to develop the discussion. Maybe in 1939 two-thirds of the recently partitioned six counties were Protestant. But the 'Border Commissions' recommendations were dismissed and the All Ireland electorate and the majority of the 1919 Dáil wishes were twarted by the British government thus dismissing the democratic wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland irrespective of their religion.

It is mere speculation and opinion as to what may of happened if Britain had withdrawn fully from Ireland. The principle of self-determination is that those with a vested interest (IE; those living on the island of Ireland) decide what happens. It is not decided for them by others who do not live here.

Now it has been a while since I read on the period. But did Carson not want a United Ireland under Britain?

But rather than rehash the rights and wrongs of history. Let us look at the two states that were artificially created. Both suffered because of partition and the natural minorities were weakened considerably. But depriving both states of a balance that might have helped positive growth. In the south we had Dev promoting a Catholic ethos within the institutions of the state. And in the north we had a more vigorous sectarian discrimination against Catholics.

Today both states recognize and accept that this occurred. And both are looking to move forward in a new direction. In the north we have created a system of government that ensures both traditions are equal. And we use the d'Hondt system to allocate ministries. The southern state uses majority rule and in recent times no single party has had a majority and we have had a series of 'coalition' governments. The Unionists in particular the DUP have voiced their desire to have majority rule. But given our experience of this northern state under majority system Unionism has shown itself unable to resist the temptation to abuse the power of government in a majority rule system. And on their own unable or unwilling to reform the northern state.

Should we look to create a d'Hondt system in the south? Or would Unionism like to join with a southern party to create an All-Ireland 'coalition' under majority rule?

[earl]

2 pages into the thread on a particularly row-inducing subject and everyone is still being civil! Well done.

I see that we are getting a little bogged down in technicalities. For the record, you are all right and all wrong. The island is referred to in geographic terms as Ireland. It is made of two states, the UK and the ROI, although the ROI is also officially known as just Ireland in EU and UN circles. So WASP is right and wrong saying that he's not from Ireland, depending on which definition is being referred to! This is confusing enough to just leave alone.

It is sad to see that WASP and many like him associate much of Irish culture with the PIRA, but it's not wholly surprising. Culture was used like a dog p!ssing on a lamp post in NI by both sides to define themselves as 'not the other'. It is like Jim says where people from NI have more in common with each other than with someone from London, or even Dublin and this did not sit well with the fanatics on both sides. A more visible dividing line had to be created. It's going to take time and a generation or two to undo this damage.

As regards Irishness and Britishness - well, you can't have that much shared history without influences being passed in both directions. I accept that there is a British dimension to my history and certainly an influence in culture. Some of the greatest poets and authors in the English language were Irish, and where would Ireland have been without tea and potatoes being introduced here?

On the topic itself, I see Ulster Scots being mentioned as an ethnic group, which is fair enough, but not all unionists are ulster scots. Many are from an English background. I'm not too sure how the term 'Ulster Scots' sits with these people.

I have always advocated a federal UI with the current NI autonomous with devolved powers operating much as it is now.

[Jim]

As have I but I have little interest in going under Dublin rule, the division has been too long to simply do that, a united Ireland will involve an entire change of the government system of Ireland, a federalist or devolved system would have to be made with an all ireland government and devolved regions, even if it is just two, with the NI executive working as it is now. This wether Unionists like it or not will eventually happen, not due to their own fault but because the break up of the union will happen as soon as the Scottish decide to pull out. Nationalism in England and in Scotland is growing rapidly, when Scotland does pull out, England will not want to deal with a troublesome state as it will have its own priorities to attend too.

And regarding that 1939 article, I cant help but believe it was written with the current times in mind, it cleverly forgets that Carson was a very vocal Irishman as well as a British man, he seen himself as Irish, that has never equated with Irish Republicanism which is a political ideology, not a nation nor a culture. Likewise with the Orange Order pre partition, just as their Scottish brothers seen themselves as Scottish and British.

[Wasp]

2 pages into the thread on a particularly row-inducing subject and everyone is still being civil! Well done.

Agreed.

I see that we are getting a little bogged down in technicalities. For the record, you are all right and all wrong. The island is referred to in geographic terms as Ireland. It is made of two states, the UK and the ROI, although the ROI is also officially known as just Ireland in EU and UN circles. So WASP is right and wrong saying that he's not from Ireland, depending on which definition is being referred to! This is confusing enough to just leave alone.

Can we not just stick with the I am right part of your post. ;D

It is sad to see that WASP and many like him associate much of Irish culture with the PIRA, but it's not wholly surprising. Culture was used like a dog p!ssing on a lamp post in NI by both sides to define themselves as 'not the other'.

It is sad and it is also sad that much of my culture is demonized and protested against with people travelling to be offended at my culture. That part of my culture is filled with history and it is filled with colourful displays with many musicians playing to near perfection. Some of my favourite band songs are sound of silence, abide with me and how great thou art which many bands play to near perfection. Ontop of this many many men women and children go for a fun family day out such as on the 12th and to see young kids playing the drums to perfection is amazing. But sadly this is life in N.Ireland, you have parts of Irish culture which is very much associated with republicans which are frowned upon and you have my culture which is also frowned upon and protested against at every opportunity.

It is like Jim says where people from NI have more in common with each other than with someone from London, or even Dublin and this did not sit well with the fanatics on both sides. A more visible dividing line had to be created. It's going to take time and a generation or two to undo this damage.

I am not so sure if that is entirely correct, for me I love England and I love being over there and I have very much in common with many whom I meet there. Like here there are parts I do not like but thats the same with anyplace. I also have friends in Sligo and I have much in common with them but I feel far more alien in the republic than anywhere else on the British isles and I feel intimidated much more than anywhere else. Which is strange because I would be more comfortable or at least as comfortable in a republican area up here than some areas in the republic.

As regards Irishness and Britishness - well, you can't have that much shared history without influences being passed in both directions. I accept that there is a British dimension to my history and certainly an influence in culture. Some of the greatest poets and authors in the English language were Irish, and where would Ireland have been without tea and potatoes being introduced here?

Earl if we can on the above post leave out politics for a minute. What part of me would you say or think that I have Irishness with? Yes I did attend Irish dancing competitions but what else could you say that has influenced me from an Irish point of view?

On the topic itself, I see Ulster Scots being mentioned as an ethnic group, which is fair enough, but not all unionists are ulster scots. Many are from an English background. I'm not too sure how the term 'Ulster Scots' sits with these people.

I have never seen any issues with that and I know many from English backgrounds are part of the Ulster Scots.

[Wasp]

Earl I am starting a thread on the Ulster Scots to add to what I have said here.

[earl]

WASP

Earl if we can on the above post leave out politics for a minute. What part of me would you say or think that I have Irishness with? Yes I did attend Irish dancing competitions but what else could you say that has influenced me from an Irish point of view?

I'm afraid I can't answer this as I don't know you outside of this forum and what you chose to be known on here. As you said, there was the dancing and you've stated that you do listen to some Irish music.

I would be referring to a more general case. E.G. old English poetry and religious writings are influenced by the writings of Irish monks. Or ancient Welsh manuscripts on harp playing which are actually written in Irish Gaelic.

I've mentioned Irish literature already. More and more in modern times, we see Irish influences on modern British popular culture. Morrisey, Lennon, McCarthy, Connolly, Costello, Boyle, Hitchcock, Gallagher, Rooney, O'Leary, etc.

Lets not forget Halloween either!

[Wasp]

I do listen to Irish music, I watch the lotto cos I do it every week but thats about it. There is nothing else I can think of that is Irish that influences me in my life. When I am down south there isnt even anything that I can think of that connects me to Irish culture, I love the scenery and its good meeting friends but thats about it.

[earl]

A lot of Irish and British culture is the same. Both cultures are great tea drinkers and booze drinkers. You've got the full Irish, the Ulster fry, the full English. If you want to go into segregating the parts that are different, then that's fine. But by having a British culture, you have about 90% of Irish culture and vice versa. 95% if you just count Scottish and Irish. The only thing I find strange when I go to Britain is the term 'Hole in the wall' for an ATM. Always sounded too close to 'glory hole' for me! And handling sterling. Everything else was pretty much the same. So I think you are looking for differences to connect to, instead of looking at what's common.

These days, modern popular culture is made up of British, Irish and American cultures anyway, so there aren't really any huge differences anymore.

[Wasp]

We call it the hole in the wall up here, well anyone that I know certainly do use that term

[Jim]

ive always called it an atm.

[bearhunter]

"1 of my favourite songs is Lovely leitrim shore and when I am drunk which is quite often I have my music blaring with many Irish country/love songs along with country and western"

Jasus, Wasp I knew there was a reason I didn't like you...

[Wasp]

May 14, 2009 1:29:29 GMT bearhunter said:

"1 of my favourite songs is Lovely leitrim shore and when I am drunk which is quite often I have my music blaring with many Irish country/love songs along with country and western"

Jasus, Wasp I knew there was a reason I didn't like you...

Ah come on BH bet you listen to it as well ;D ;D