Kilkeel, why the difference??

[Wasp]

Lochy wrote 'but to do your general routine and do a blanket condemnation on all nationalist parades as supporting terrorists is just silly.'

When did I say all nationalist parades support terrorists? I did not say that.

People talk of a uvf/uda band, this doesn't mean that members of the band are in it, but they are still classed as a uvf/uda band. I said the exact same of this band and I stand by it, they are an ira band in the sameway their are uvf/uda bands. If you noticed I also wrote in my post that I didn't see any uvf/uda bands, therefore I am not making a difference.

[lochy]

wasp said:

Lochy wrote 'but to do your general routine and do a blanket condemnation on all nationalist parades as supporting terrorists is just silly.'

When did I say all nationalist parades support terrorists? I did not say that.

People talk of a uvf/uda band, this doesn't mean that members of the band are in it, but they are still classed as a uvf/uda band. I said the exact same of this band and I stand by it, they are an ira band in the sameway their are uvf/uda bands. If you noticed I also wrote in my post that I didn't see any uvf/uda bands, therefore I am not making a difference.

Sorry WASP, That iswhat I interpreted your "You maybe don't celebrate imperialism but you do celebrate the acts of terrorists. " statement to mean. If that is not the case then I take it back.

[Wasp]

That's ok Lochy, simple misunderstanding. Setanta the 15th of August is the AOH parade, this is not America, in America do republican terrorists target Protestants, do Loyalist terrorists target Catholics. Thee OO also march in America and Canada and Catholics attend the parades. N.Ireland is a different ball game altogether. Do try and keep with reality in N.Ireland and stop side stepping the facts on Kilkeel.

For example last year a member of the AOH was interviewed before their parade and that of the apprentice boys. He made a real swipe at the Apprentice Boys and both orders have proved there is no love lost between them. Now you can talk about America etc, but that is a different country and we are talking about here in Kilkeel. The Unionist community in KIlkeel has shown tolerance of the other community, nationalists in other areas have not shown the same courtesy.

[Wasp]

So you are denying anything I have said about Kilkeel, you have ignored the fact I also said the 15th August, you are ignoring the fact that loyalist bands do not march with republican bands, loyalist orders don't march with nationalist orders etc. Kilkeel is a largely Unionist town, but you were all to willing to state that the OO in Lurgan shouldn't be walking down near one end of the town because it is largely nationalist, yet you don't seem to be applying the same opinion to nationalists in Kilkeel. Well your opinion would be sticking with the sinn fein party line who stated any restrictions on nationalist parade in Kilkeel was a slap in the face to nationalists. Now why would nationalists want to march through a largely Unionist area?

If you don't understand the difference between loyalist parades and republican/nationalist parades or why Unionists and nationalists don't feel inclusive in certain parades, then I understand why you are being so naive or totally lacking in knowledge on the facts.

[Wasp]

Setanta how could loyalist bands and nationalist bands parade together? Unionists and nationalists should be able to celebrate the day together, but republicans have hijacked much of the parades.

BTW as I have already said I don't want the AOH parade banned.

[Wasp]

Are you really saying republicans have not hijacked St Patrick's day parades?? Would republican marchers want to get involved in a march which was partly organised by the OO?

Since you seem to be ignoring concerns of residents in Kilkeel unlike other parades, here is some more info for you.

Police in riot gear moved in to keep the crowd of about 50 loyalist youths back from the parade. A crowd of up to 1,000 nationalists gathered on the opposite side of the street. Scuffles broke out at a contentious nationalist Saint Patrick's Day parade in County Down.

Angry loyalists tried to block the parade and heckled members of an Ancient Order of Hibernians band as they walked through Kilkeel on Friday morning.

The decision by the Parades Commission to allow the parade to go ahead had caused outrage in the loyalist community in Kilkeel. Relatives of victims of republican violence in the area had decided to challenge the commission's decision at the High Court in Belfast.

But their application for a judicial review of the decision was turned down by Mr Justice Coghlin on Thursday. The ruling meant the Ancient Order of Hibernians was allowed to march past a memorial and Mourne Presbyterian Church, where seven victims are buried.

The case for the victims' families had been brought in the name of a 78-year-old woman, whose son was murdered by the IRA. Voicing her opposition to the parade, Rachel Campbell said: "I lost my son.

"He's buried in the graveyard. I think it is in bad taste. He'd only been in the police for nine months when he was shot."

Then we could look at sinn fein attitude in Dunloy for exmample. A letter addressed to the residents of the Co Antrim village of Dunloy by the Orange Order was rejected by Sinn Fein Councillor for the area Philip McGuigan. The letter the Orange Order claim was written to 'extend the hand of friendship' was not accepted by the councillor who said the planned event on April 11th was a 'triumphalist parade without engagement of the local populace'.

Yet in Kilkeel re-routing of nationalist parades is a slap in the face to nationalists according to sinn fein. Please Setanta get to know what it is really like in N.Ireland for both sides and why eachside is offended by the other.

[Bilk]

Can see where WASP is coming from with this, or perhaps going to would be a better way of putting it. Like him I would like to see the day when all parades would be allowed. There should be no ban on people expressing their religion and culture. Sure, the hooligans on both sides should be stopped, but no one seems willing to do that. So we are left with a situation where, wherever possible, people will want one parade or another banned. This suggests to me that this country is not moving forward but backward. It is to be sanitised of all things that people cannot feel part of. We will be left in a situation, if this continues, where no one can feel part of any culture or religion, because it offends someone else. That is where we are headed, and far from accepting each other, we are doing the opposite and utterly rejecting each others right to exist.

[Jim]

Didnt think the AOH even had a following in Ireland. I dont know any AOH members.

[Wasp]

Setanta out of 200 loyalist protestors about 50 hurled abuse as did the otherside. Was some of the AOH leaders in America not ex-ira/ira men? I am not saying the AOH and the ira are one, what I am saying it is well known that some parades such as St Patricks have been hijacked in one way or another by republicans, which means Unionists could hardly feel part of or inclusive in such a parade. But I do agree it's for everyone, and I just wish the tolerance shown by Unionists in Kilkeel could be returned by repbublicans in other areas such as Lurgan for example.

[Wasp]

I have already said that the AOH AND IRA ARE NOT ONE. I don't take much interest in whether ira terrorists are in the AOH, OO or whatever. Well to answer your question here are a few pointers.

(1)The AOH in St. Louis Missouri has appointed a PIRA terrorist to be the Grand Marshal of the St.Patrick's Day Parade (1997)-Mr. Matt Morrison- Mr. Morrison was at the time facing deportation for his crimes.

(2)In Baltimore Maryland U.S.A. the AOH in 1997 represented by the Irish Parade Committee have invited NORAID (And I think noraid speaks for itself)) to take part in its parade.

(3)A convicted SinnFein/IRA bomber. Brian Pearson was chosen by the AOH to be grand marshal of the giant parade in Pearl River, 25 miles from New York.

One of the goals of the AOH is protecting and defending their Catholic faith, which is the same as the OO but the other way round.

Here is part of an article I found.

A former senior Provisional IRA member, who until 2003 sat on Sinn Fein’s national executive, is reorganising the extreme nationalist right in Ireland by attempting a takeover of the Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH), the largely moribund marching organisation seen as the Catholic equivalent of the Orange Order.

Gerry McGeough, 47, from Tyrone, now living in Dublin, has been described by the FBI as a “dedicated terrorist” and “senior commander” in the IRA. He makes no secret of his Provisional IRA past and his extreme anti-gay and pro-traditional Catholic views. McGeough is believed to have served on the PIRA’s “headquarters staff” and overseen its international arms buying and military operations during the early 1980s. He has served eight years in total in American and German prisons, awaiting trial for an IRA attack on a British barracks in Germany in 1988 and attempts to purchase surface-to-air missiles in the US. Until recently he was the editor of the large circulation Irish Catholic newspaper the Irish Family.

Now he has turned his attentions to saving Ireland from “sodomy” and immigration and returning it to “Catholic Faith and Gaelic Heritage“. In May McGeough, as editor, and Charles Byrne, a 28-year-old from Drogheda, launched a monthly magazine called The Hibernian, dedicated to “Faith, Family and Country”. Seemingly well funded and run from premises in the border town of Drogheda, the magazine acts as a publicity vehicle for McGeough and the extreme right in Ireland. Some of its contributors are associated with Youth Defence, an extreme anti-abortion group, and the Society of Pope Pius X, others are those attempting to infiltrate and take over the AOH.

In recent months local newspapers in rural southern Ireland and the border area have carried advertisements for those interested in joining a revitalised AOH which is to focus on the promotion of so-called “Hibernian” values. McGeough says that a significant number of persons associated with his brand of homophobia and extreme Catholicism have now been recruited into existing AOH “divisions”, the term for local units of the organisation, and have formed new “divisions” in Dublin and other areas of Ireland.

The former terrorist first emerged as a figure on the Irish extreme right when he accompanied Justin Barrett on a lecture tour of Irish towns in March 2004 in support of Barrett’s bid for election to the European Parliament. Support fell away from Barrett following the exposure of his and his supporters’ links to European neo-fascist groups connected to Roberto Fiore’s International Third Position. Another Youth Defence founder, Niamh Nic Mhathuna, had attended conferences of Fiore’s neo-fascist Forza Nuova in Italy.

Barrett had also attended the German NDP’s “National Day of Resistance” rally in Passau in May 2000 at which former members of the Third Reich spoke along with international neo-fascist figures such as Udo Voigt, leader of the NDP. It was during this period that McGeough, then acting as organiser of the Sinn Fein anti-Nice campaign, became involved with Barrett and his cohorts. Because of his IRA activities McGeough had a strong following among some Provo supporters. He was elected to the Sinn Fein national executive in 1999 while studying history in Trinity College. He became the party’s national campaigns organiser in 2001 and remained on the executive until 2003. During that time he, along with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness, led Sinn Fein election campaigns and toured the country addressing republicans on behalf of the party.

Wow sounds just like facists.

Now on to kilkeel.

On that occasion alone there were 200 protestors and about 50 of them were involved in heated exchanges. The fifty or so were on one side of the street and the nationalists/republicans on the other.

The words of Gerry Adams speaking at a Republican Conference in County Meath (Republic of Ireland) in 1997 stated "Ask any activist in the North did Drumcree happen by accident, and they will tell you `no' . . . three years of work on the Lower Ormeau Road, Portadown and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and Bellaghy and up in Derry". "Three years work went into creating that situation, and fair play to those people who put the work in". Could you comment on this if you can, Harry and I both told you about sinn fein creating situations such as in Ballymena etc.

Setanta you seem to be dismissing the events of Kilkeel etc, so may I ask you a question and remind you of one of your comments.

WHY WOULD THEY NATIONALISTS WANT TO MARCH DOWN THE MAINLY Unionist Greencastle Street?? How do you feel about them wanting to parade through a mainly Unionist area.

Your comment on the OO in Lurgan was that why would the OO want to walk down to the mainly nationalist part of the town where they are not wanted. You also said about them disrupting Catholics going about their business in day to day lives. I said to you that you want them to stay in there own part of the town etc. I hope you remember those comments.

You have accused me of highlighting my own prejudice. Perhaps you may have already highlighted your own.

[Wasp]

Setanta I am showing that I am not just blaming one side, some nationalists used the parade to cause trouble and some loyalists caused trouble. What is so wrong with saying that?

I also said republicans in recent years had been attacking the police and Unionists in the town, this does not mean everyone at the parade was out for trouble.

[Wasp]

Setanta it certainly did not come from the upmg, it came from searchlight magazine (which I don't think I have heard of), the Observer newspaper, An phoblacht etc.
Is none of this true about what was said?

Is he not a member of the AOH?

Well according to a member of the AOH, he wrote 'AOH members up and down the country are well aware that Gerry McGeogh has recently joined the AOH in Dublin and have also now become aware of his actions and supposed attempt or intention to take over the AOH for his own purposes.'

Check out Hibernian magazine where he claims that opposing homosexuals isn't discrimination its just trying to stamp out unnatural deviance. Check this quote for laughs "No corner of Ireland is free now from greed, selfishness and the host of evils that emanate from an unbridled indulgence in the perversions of pornography, the homosexual lifestyle, New Age spirituality, drug and alcohol abuse and the contraceptive culture."

Then there is Tomás mac Cormaic and his anti immigration and anti homosexual views, and it comes as no surprise to learn that they were also his views when a member of Sinn Féin and were also the views of a large section of Sinn Féin in Cork. Craobh Gal Gréine was founded by over 30 members who have all previous backgrounds within Sinn Féin and the Provisional Movement. Is this true or false??

On Kilkeel I DID SEE an article stating 200 ptortestors, I will do a search later to find it. Infact I copied and paste some of the article.

You asked me about loyalist bands should take part etc because St Patrick was for everyone, even though the whole green colour part excludes the orange colour part. Here is part of an article from Cain. You do use cain yourself, don't you?

The annual Downpatrick parade was cancelled due to rumours that loyalist bands would attempt to take part in it.

Could you comment your thoughts on this point, they even cancelled the parade because of rumours about loyalist bands attempting to take part. Really inclusive isn't it??

[collina]

wasp said:

The point of the thread is to highlight the difference in tolerance shown between two communities to do with parades.

.

WASP, these problems have more to do with human nature than "difference in tolerance shown between two communities". Could Manchester Utd fans walk through Liverpool without a Police escourt? Could Leeds utd Fans walk through Bradford with out protection?

Where was the tolerance when mothers and their young daughters tried to get to school in a cartain part of north Belfast?

In every society there is a mob that tends towards violence. Take a look at your bible and you'll see plenty of it.

[Wasp]

Collina I agree with much of your post, but on these issues it is more a case of tolerance rather than human nature. I do not want parades banned, I believe the AOH or anyother nationalist parade has the reight to march on the same roads that they share daily with everyone else. My point is that the tolerance shown in Kilkeel should be shown in other areas as well. That doesn't mean I think uvf bands or ira bands should walk up the falls or shankhill etc. Just some common tolerance, such as in Garvaghy road which happens once a year, Kilkeel which happens twice a year etc. Some respect and common courtesy is required by all sides.

[Republic]

does anyone else think that parades are boring, pointless, and on the whole, pretty stupid?