If you ever needed a reason to hate the BNP

[Jim]

Cuz some loyalists are the only British people who arent comfortable with any aspect of their Irishness, insisting they aren't Irish. I'm not going to say they are or arent I find it highly ignorant of me to conclude it at that, but the thinking in England, Scotland and Wales is that they are Irish and a bit behind the times, while they do understand why they might not want to be called Irish they hardly agree with it.

But ofcourse, we will get the "well i know a few english who dont say that" arguments.

[Harry]

I'm N.Irish and when i'm asked that is the answer i give when in the UK. When working in Europe i call myself British. I don't get hung up or upset if someone refers to me as Irish because to a massive extent i am. I know the difference as i'm an Irish Brit so wouldn't get bothered and go into one if someone calls me Irish unless its a delibrate way of trying to antagonise me and i've never had that.

[Wasp]

My point was that do the Irish in general who emmigrate feel different that they can't competely move or evolve into the new society that they belong to like the people Earl was talking about.

My own American relations call themselves American first and foremost, not anything else. Nothing strange or wierd talking about your background or that you have Irish/Ulster scotts anscestors etc, but to call yourself Irish American for example is daft. Maybe it is because they feel different and something tells them that they don't quite fit in at times, so stick to what they are comfortable with.

Why praise immigrants for being the new Irish and being proud of their new nationalisty when many Irish can't do the samething when they goto another country, especially those who are then born in the new country.

Now I am not talking about all Irish people just those who refer to people with anscestors in Ireland as say Irish americans when they never ever set foot over here.

[earl]

wasp said:

My point was that do the Irish in general who emmigrate feel different that they can't competely move or evolve into the new society that they belong to like the people Earl was talking about.

Your point was a generalisation, based on a personal opinion, which has been proven that it is based more from bias than any actual facts. 'can't competely move or evolve into the new society ', so I take it the Ulster Scots when they came over here evolved into the society they were moving into, right? Neigbours of yours still use the term 'Ulster-Scots', even though the last Scottish born ancestor of theirs could of been back in the 1600's, so whatever slight you are trying to put on the Irish, remember that your own community were immigrants once, and how integrated they are with the rest of the island. For an Irish equivalent, you are looking at Boston refusing to call themselves anything with 'American' in it, calling themselves the 'Bostonian-Irish' and running away from any word or association to the word 'American'.

My own American relations call themselves American first and foremost, not anything else. Nothing strange or wierd talking about your background or that you have Irish/Ulster scotts anscestors etc,

So what's all this business with 'Scots-Irish'? Isn't there a few Scots-Irish on another forum you frequent, who have a certain amount of pride in their ancestors traditions? Isn't there a lot of Scots-Irish who now proclaim that they are Irish-American?

but to call yourself Irish American for example is daft.

Why is it daft WASP? You've yet to logically and satisfactorily answer that question, other than offering up opinion. Are the Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Hispanics and Puerto-Ricans also daft, or are you just saving that for the Irish and their silly little notions? You keep harping on like we are the exception, but you'll find that the Irish aren't the only ones as proud of their motherlands heritage as well as their American heritage. That's a part of being American that either you or I (and especially you) will never fully understand.

Maybe it is because they feel different and something tells them that they don't quite fit in at times, so stick to what they are comfortable with.

Or maybe this is an ill-informed and uneducated guess at what you might like to think the reason for it is. Maybe you are transferring your own feelings on your own community and transplanting them to what you see as a similar situation. Irish-Americans are FULLY integrated into American society. They are not standing on the periphery, sulking and trying to separate themselves from the rest of America. Irish-Americans are at the forefront of American society. John Wayne, one of the most American of icons was an Irish-American. Are you trying to tell me that John Wayne didn't quite fit in? How about Maureen O'Hara, Bill Haley (of the Comets), Judy Garland, Mia Farrow, Margaret O'Brien, Grace Kelley, John McCormack, Mickey Rourke, Barry Fitzgerald, Art Carney, Tyrone Power, Carroll O'Connor, Errol Flynn, James Cagney, Shirley Maclaine, Jackie Gleason, Mary Tyler Moore, Warren Beatty, Angelica Huston, The Dorsey Brothers, Bing Crosby, Spencer Tracy, Thomas Mitchell, Anthony Quinn, Jack Lemmon, Burt Lancaster, Gregory Peck, Patricia Neal, George Kennedy, Robert Redford and Walter Brennan.
How about Audie Murphy? Here is a picture of him, 'not quite fitting in'

In 27 months of combat action in World War II, Murphy became the most decorated United States combat soldier in United States military history. He received the Medal of Honor, the U.S. military's highest award for valor, along with 32 additional U.S. medals, five from France, and one from Belgium. He went on to be a very successful actor, in war films and westerns. How very un-American of him.
Isn't the Ford motor company a modern American symbol? Jeez, I guess Henry Ford did a pretty bad job of not quite fitting in.

Here, take a look at this crowd of 'outcasts':
www.biography.com/st-patrick/famous-irish-americans.jsp

There's probably more than a few names there that are known in your household. And you'll find that all Americans are as proud of most of those names as Irish-Americans are. Why do you know that JFK's grave in Arlington National Cemetery is the most visited grave there? Do you think it's people coming to wonder at such an 'odd curiosity' that this man, coming from a community which didn't quite fit in was able to make it to the top?
And this is only concentrating on those famous Irish-Americans, nevermind the hard-working citizens who helped build state institutions as well as helped build states.

Why praise immigrants for being the new Irish and being proud of their new nationalisty when many Irish can't do the samething when they goto another country, especially those who are then born in the new country.

This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt now that this is bogus based on your own biased opinion. Let it go WASP. It's just something you are going to have to live with. You don't here me complaining about comedian Michael Myers (Austin Powers) when he proudly proclaims his Scottish heritage, nor when Angus Young of AC/DC does the same. But that's just me. I don't let stuff like that bother me.

Now I am not talking about all Irish people just those who refer to people with anscestors in Ireland as say Irish americans when they never ever set foot over here.

Like the Ulster-Scots who have never set foot in Scotland then?

[Wasp]

Yes the same goes for those who claim their nationality to be Ulster Scotts, Irish American etc etc etc. I must have touched on a bit of a raw nerve. I never once said all Irish, I said in general and their are plenty of Americans born and bred who are confused about their nationality. Nothing wrong with saying they come from an Ulster Scot background or an Irish American background but to claim that is what they are is daft and stupid IMO.

If they cannot fully embrace their new nationality and be proud of it then they should go somewhere else. I find the whole identity thing completely false and stupid.

[earl]

They HAVE fully embraced their identity! Being American can be like being British in certain respects. You can be proud of being British and take pride in your home identity. Just because somebody says he's a proud Englishman, doesn't make him any less British. In America, your roots are very important. You can be proud of your roots while at the same time being a full and active member of American society and culture. Are you telling me John Wayne wasn't a proud American?
You are totally missing a crucial aspect of what it means to be American. If you ever talk to an American about their roots, many of them can tell you something like, "I'm half Irish, 1/4 German, 1/8 Polish and 1/8 Jewish". Have you ever heard an American say something along these lines?

If they cannot fully embrace their new nationality and be proud of it then they should go somewhere else. I find the whole identity thing completely false and stupid

What a very articulate way of putting it....

[Wasp]

I know quite a few Americans including relatives. Not one has used half anything. Some of those I know have family here, some from England and they say it irritates the shite out of them when as soon as they say they have a relative from here they usually get the 'oh you are Irish' etc. They are adamant they are American, nothing else and I think there are many who share their views. The English seem to be able to go to America and settle down with theire kids being nothing other than American.

For a few laughs take a look at this. No 19 is a classic.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=irish-american&page=3

[earl]

What can I say WASP, if you've never come across it, then well, you've never come across it. I've heard it many times before, in life and on tv, so I'm actually surprised that you haven't heard this phenomenon.
Your tone still suggests that you consider hyphenated Americans as somehow, less American. I'll leave that between you and the Americans to decide amoungst themselves. The reason why most English can go over and just become 'American' is because the original make-up and definition of 'American' was your very name-sake, W.A.S.P. White Anglo Saxon Protestant.

It looks like most of those 'definitions were written by Irish people, by the names on the tags.

Here's the entries for Scots-Irish
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scots-irish

[Wasp]

I didn't say I never came across it, I just have heard the opposite from Americans I know whos family originate from here or the UK.

BTW I wasn't meaning to be a smart arse, it was a genuine point about why people class themselves as what I stated in my posts.

[Wasp]

Depends really, if it is for this twat then no way. If it is just a protest vote at the government for their handling of the white working class then I would be tempted on that alone. But when you take the rest of the bnp shite I couldn't nring myself to do it.

[Jim]

setanta said:

so are we in agreement that no one should vote BNP in the London elections?

In general yes, but like Wasp said, not because of this root.