A lession from Ballymena

[Harry]

This was a great gesture and i fully support them in what they did. Thugs attacking the house of god have no place in our society. i would condemn any attack on any place of worship. Sadly it still goes on and OO halls fall into this bracket as well.

[Wasp]

Only mindless thugs on both sides do this, thugs who probably haven't a clue about politics or what is going on, they only know to hate. What high kirk done is something I am very familiar with and know alot about. This same church had members reaching out in Ahoghill as well, in fact one member was forced to leave his home for doing so.

[Blue Angel]

to be honest what i've hear from ballymena from both sides is that as pointed out there are idiots on both sides whose ideas of constructive political debate is a knuckle sandwich (with added knucles as a side order). On the other I have a friend who lives there who is a member of the PFC (although he has become disenchanted with them over the years as he feels the upper echelons of that church are more into lining their own pockets than anything else) and staunchly unionist and even he feels the DUP is intrasigent and incapable of saying anything but, 'no, no and no again'. Certainly anyone who read the BBC news yesterday would have seen an article on yet another sectarian attack, in this case on a catholic, but i am sure there are equally horrible attacks on protestants. I for one actually will admit that SF do have a habit of giving faint condemnation to attacks on protestants. I can actually see Harry's points, condemning all attacks means saying bluntly 'We condemn attacks on Protestant, Catholics and any other religous group. Whereas SF tend to word it differently depending which community has been attacked. If it is one of 'our own', the wording is less ambigous and more strongly worded, if it is one 'of them' I notice it tends to be a lip-service level of condemnation. I don't mean that to reflect on you Setanta as i know you personally would condemn all attacks, but sometimes looking at SF I wonder is that true throughout the organisation.

as an aside, ballymena also has half of all registered heroin addicts in NI, I like giving out useless statistics

[Wasp]

The drugs problem in Ballymena is real bad. Even kids are selling them frequently in schools.

[Blue Angel]

yes and i would like to say my smiley above is not meant to trivialise the problem of drug abuse in ballymena. Meanwhile back on topic I do think the way Ballymena is presented in the news does not help perceptions, as it is awlays presented as a kind of bible belt with intolerance everywhere in the town. Very rarely do we hear anything to balance that perception which I am sure cannot be the whole picture

[Harry]

Most of the people in Ballymena just want to get on with life. Its a minority on both sides who are causing the trouble and i'd say its the young ones. The 15/16 year olds nowadays have so much hatred for each other that its scary to think about the years ahead. A complete lack of any real leadership on either side only injects further hatred into it. SF trying to gain support and by doing so they are causing great unrest within Unionism with their continuous harrasing of anything Unionist or Loyalist. Unionists so concerned about isolating SF that they would bite their noses off to spite their face and as such only send the message out to the younger generation that its ok to hate!!!!

What hope have we got? As Blue Angel as talked about we have a massive drug problem. Police resources are now used to patrol estates, interfaces, on dealing with stuff that we should be finished with. This means that vital resources are not being directed at the drug dealers or the drug supply chains. The drugs issue has taken second or third fiddle to all the other problems we now face.

Its about time a few heads rolled or at least were banged very hard together.

[Wasp]

Let's face it even a the most moderate blindman could clearly see what sinn fein want in Ballymena and that is to create, maintain and increase tensions. It is blatantly obvious no matter what sinn fein try to dress it up as. By doing this sinn fein are moving Ballymena backwards and it is seriously damaging any good that sinn fein has done elsewhere concerning Unionists. Sinn fein must stop this all now before this all leads to more violence and possibly more deaths.

Both sides are in the wrong, both sides are causing trouble but as Harry said this is mainly among young people and sinn fein are fueling this hatred big time.

If I was an elected representative in Ballymena this is what I would suggest. McKay and co need to be completely ignored, untill they change there attitude thne it would be pointless to even try to talk to such a man because he is a liar and he is only to be laughed at. Both sides say about his lies, both sides say he is there to cause trouble. This would be backed up by so few taking part in his protests. He is simply playiong on the emotions of some and trying to put emotions where there weren't there already in others.

All the bands should comply fully witth the parades commissions rulings, whether they like it or not, Unionist reps should take note of all McKay's claims and prove them wrong and hand them over to the media etc to show why such a man is to be ignored on these issues.

Schools need to play a big part and IMO it would be a good idea for every once in a while for some pupils from each school to switch places with pupils from the other schools. A mixed football competition, pool competition etc should be promoted. Enviromental issues such as cleaning up a park etc in both ends of the town by pupils from all schools would also be a great idea.

Unionist councillors should visit Catholic schools on a regular basis to explain the political situation from a Unionist perspective and vice versa with Nationalist politicians. All political reps. should promote peace and harmony with there neighbours and perhaps a questionaire after a while could maybe show if these innitiatives were working.

But Unionist reps would have to leave the door open for talks with Mckay in the hope that he will simply catch himself on, and the same should be done for those on all sides who are stirring the shit. There are two sides here and two sets of people that have many from there community live in fear, this must be takckled and stopped before it gets worse.

As far as McKay is concerned he should swing his hook unless of course he stops hating Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists and stops the lies, because everything he is doing is proving what I just said.

[Wasp]

No Setanta, I have learned alot and my point is McKay has proved that he only wants to stir up trouble, increase and create tensions and situations. What would be the point of talking to someone who has proved beyond doubt that he only wants conflict, this is what he thrives on to play on peoples emotions. To do with voting for him, I already told you about an ex UDR man and his wife voting sinn fein, this was on bread and butter issues, if it was on parades, a UI or whatever then they wouldn't be voting sinn fein. The majority of people from Ballymena who voted for Billy liar certainly didn't vote for him based on his handling of parades, the turn out of protestors proves this.

So while this man is looking for trouble, then he should be ignored until he wises up and tries to outreach properly and the same goes for Unionist politicians. Why give such a man the stage to keep doing what he has set out to do???

[An Fear Dubh]

I am trying to understand the situation in Ballymena, and I must say it is very hard. It is obvious that Wasp and Harry have an intimate knowledge which is difficult to argue against. And on the whole you find yourself agreeing with most of their points. And the positions adopted by the SF representative Daithi McKay are in the majority unsustainable and seem petty and vindictive.

Of course tribal politics is at play here, and I have heard about a UVF individual 'the Mexican' who also wants to stir it up. We have in the past seen Ballymena council adopt some very petty and possible sectarian/bigoted positions. They have when there was a DUP majority excluded nationalists from council positions. And only when unionism became fragmented have we seen the first nationalist as Deputy Mayor.

I think it would be foolish to think that because the protest numbers were small that this is an indication of loss or lack of support. Most people do not want conflict or 'trouble' and will sit back and hope it does not come to personally effect them while still wanting the situation resolved by someone else. And you can not 'cherry pick' from a political party policies, and assume that votes are for one policy only. People might vote because on issue is important to them, but they must take the whole package when they vote.

The mistake in ignoring 'trouble-makers' is that you give them the room to grow and expand without confronting their poor positions. It does not mean they will wise up, or shrivel away, in fact they think they are winning and grow more confident. That confidence bolsters others who are undecided and brings more in to support.

The point of talking to such people and confronting their positions would be to expose the weakness or strength of their argument. If their position is weak it will be seen as such.

The problem is in Ballymena that Daithi McKay's argument is weak. But that also the position of the Orange Order is also weak, maybe not as weak. But given their intransigence elsewhere people already have a predetermined position towards their view point. This means that they should double their efforts to explain the situation in Ballymena and ensure that 'trouble-makers' like the Mexican can not allowed to take away from that.

[Harry]

AFD your attempt to sipher through this and give your own input is very welcome and i like the way you have approached the problems. You are able to see flaws with SF approach and while still maintaining your defence of your community you have the ability to see the faults of your own people, while also highlighting the wrong doings of Unionists in Ballymena.

The Mexican is North Antrim/Londonderry UDA and i was unaware of any influence he had in Ballymena as Ballymena falls under the brigade of South East Antrim. Still you could be right

You have a very valid point in the sense of if our arguement is so strong in Ballymena then we do need to expose the weakness of SF and this can only be done by meeting directly with them and explaining our views.

[An Fear Dubh]

I can not say for certain, but I have been informed from one local source that the Mexican had made his pressence felt in Ballymena. I understand he is taking advantage of internal divisions within loyalism, I was told UVF but if you say UDA, I stand corrected.

[Wasp]

I am not sure about the mexican but he is definately not uvf. AFD your input is welcome here and as I have said I have no reason to lie about this issue. In no way am I saying Unionist politicians are faultless because they certainly are not. McKay is as I have said is a LIAR.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am very much feeling in the dark apart from media speculation and news reports on the issues in Ballymena. And so I am not questioning you (Wasp) or others with obvious local knowledge. But I am saying that if as you say Daithi McKay is a telling porkies, then he must be exposed as a liar, refusing to talk or deal with him, does not do that, it does in fact suggests that he might have a point and that those who oppose him feel they are on shaking ground, not him.

[Wasp]

I understand what you are saying AFD, but the local politicians and more so the people can explain and prove he is a liar without having to talk to him. Unfortunately the media doesn't seem as interested when things are coming from Unionists, but if it was the other way around I am quite sure the proof would make the headlines and be in the media for quite a bit to prove a Unionist politician is lying.

[Blue Angel]

Wasp I am sure you can see the obvious logical fallacy in this. Whether the man is a liar or not (which I for one am not qualified to judge) by not talking to him the very media you deplore has more ammunition to present a stereotyped view of unionism as incapable of saying anything but, 'no, no, no'.