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Post by Wasp on Dec 2, 2007 19:13:30 GMT
Fair enough Setanta and fair play to you as well. For me I couldn't do it unless the person was able to show true remorse etc for there part (support or otherwise) in bomb attacks in my town/city. I would not want to see someone take an important part in such a family event if they had supported or took part in the destroying of families for decades where they left kids growing up without a father/mother/brother/sister/grandfather etc. Especially at a time like Christmas where the 'family' is celebrated.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 2, 2007 19:30:46 GMT
Well Setanta I think we all know what true remorse is.
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Post by earl on Dec 3, 2007 10:12:45 GMT
I have been critical of the republics lack of support fighting republican terrorists on extradition etc., Hard to hand an individual over, when you know he's going to be interned without trial. Along with anyone else suspected (no proof necessary) of any kind of activity. Would you like it if a regime from another country started looking to extradite a person, knowing full well that if you hand him over, the basic tenants of justice would not be observed? What if Sudan ask for that school teacher back? Under their law, she's guilty. Would you respect that countries law if they asked for her back to do the time? At least she got a trial of sorts! Sorry WASP, this issue isn't as black and white as you make out. If the NI and British governments at the time had of been obeying the simple rules and civil rights afforded to other western Europeans at the time, a lot more suspects would have been handed over to be processed through the courts system. The fact that they were just going to be bunged in jail without trial, made it almost impossible for the Irish government to hand anyone over. |
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Post by Wasp on Dec 3, 2007 12:59:52 GMT
Earl you are being very misleading here. Did internment last for three decades, wasn't the republic the first to use internment so why would that be hard for them to hand a wanted terrorist over. We all know that throughout the years terrorists/criminals walked freely in the republic after carrying out murderous deeds here. Your internmnet excuse is totally misleading of the situation.
Bollocks, again you are referring to internmnet only. Have you seen the prisons up here where the prisoners receive top education etc. Hundreds from all sides walked free because our courts are more for the criminal than they are for the victim.
Again Early you are simply referring to internment. Internment did not last 30 odd years.
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Post by Jim on Dec 3, 2007 17:49:09 GMT
Yes, the prisoners recieved an education and came out with applications to universities, how many men did it take to die for prisoners to get those type of political prisoner rights (amonst other rights)? A lot of the men that came out ended up doing more good for the place than bad, unlike the career politicians.
Internment did last 30 years, diplock courts lasted throughout the entire troubles and the only evidence usually given forward was by the RUC. Only publicisied cases would get some sort of defence, and I know plenty of men who went through it up untill the 90s.
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Post by bearhunter on Dec 3, 2007 19:55:57 GMT
Well Setanta I think we all know what true remorse is. No, WASP< I don't. I know poeple who have done bad things and then made efforts to make amends, but I doubt very much any IRA man could show enough remorse for you to even begin to trust him. So tell me please what you mean by true remorse. |
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Post by Wasp on Dec 3, 2007 20:26:37 GMT
What men are you talking about that died? Do you mean the orinary civillian killed by those who belonged to the same organisation as those in jail. You are talking about 'there rights'. These prisoners didn't think much about the rights of life itself to others before they were jailed. So why greet about their rights and ignore the rights of those they killed and injured, along with the families they destroyed. Hard labour with only the basic rights is what many of these terrorist/criminals deserved. Same as child killers and rapists IMO. While I have a problem with the death penalty, perhaps it should have been reintorduced and let the scum hang. Well those guilty of the most horrific crimes anyway. Saying that if it was to be introduced I would oppose it because when it comes down to it as much as I would want it, I couldn't support it. Even if it was Adams himself. Do the crime pay with time that meets the crime as much as possible. Just basic rights for many terrorists/criminals.
I would certainly hope so after what they put families through for the rest of the families life, not just a few years or whatever like they got in prison. The families sentence is untill they die, not some years in jail and getting the best education etc.
There are plenty of cases where guilty people walked free on technicalitys or just that wee piece of info that was needed. Like evidence that should have been used from intelligence gathering. The amount that were convicted and were innocent is a tiny minute number compared to those who were found guilty and were guilty. So much for our bad courts eh. The only reason republicans have problems with our courts is that they try to use every excuse to undermine them in the hope that they can get the guilty ones convicted off the hook by using other cases to back their case. What about the people who are spending a true life sentence without their loved ones because of the likes of the many men you know and support???
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Post by Jim on Dec 3, 2007 21:26:32 GMT
What men are you talking about that died? Do you mean the orinary civillian killed by those who belonged to the same organisation as those in jail. You are talking about 'there rights'. These prisoners didn't think much about the rights of life itself to others before they were jailed. So why greet about their rights and ignore the rights of those they killed and injured, along with the families they destroyed. Hard labour with only the basic rights is what many of these terrorist/criminals deserved. Same as child killers and rapists IMO. While I have a problem with the death penalty, perhaps it should have been reintorduced and let the scum hang. Well those guilty of the most horrific crimes anyway. Saying that if it was to be introduced I would oppose it because when it comes down to it as much as I would want it, I couldn't support it. Even if it was Adams himself. Do the crime pay with time that meets the crime as much as possible. Just basic rights for many terrorists/criminals. You know fine rightly what I'm talking about dont act daft. No one thinks about the rights of "innocents", not your army, not the uvf, not the IRA. It was attitudes like that, that allowed the killing to continue on and on and on. Get off your high horse, please. Would hardly call it a best education, most of the prisoners came out with top marks because they had fuck all else to do but read, to be honest. Heard that straight from the mouth of someone who taught them, my old politics teacher. Aye and how many of those cases where not in the papers or on the news? You really are an odd one sometimes, you blatently refuse to acknolwedge wrong-doing by your government or by the courts, if people in England got the same treatment there would be hell to pay. the reason Republicans have problems with the courts is because they dont belong here and never will  You harp on enough about families suffering but in another thread you were calling for a mother to be shot because you didnt like her politics, wise up. |
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Post by Wasp on Dec 3, 2007 22:32:24 GMT
I am an odd one, on here anyway. Absolute bollocks mate and you know it. I have been highly hypocritical of our government and I have said several times about people being wrongly accused/convicted, even on this thread. I don't think so somehow. But they do belong here and always will. (I hope). But that is not the reason, republicans want there army to be able to walk scot free everytime and they played the system brilliantly and used every form of propaganda they could to try and make others from outside here believe them. This didn't help when one case turned out to be a wrongful conviction, it added to their claims that guilty men were innocent. Most of those jailed were not in the ira, they were out on picnics at the time. I also have said in other threads that I never shed any tears for republicans that were killed but at the sametime I know that where it may be poetic justice there is also another family suffering.
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Post by Jim on Dec 4, 2007 1:24:43 GMT
I've been critical of the IRA, doesnt mean I dont support their cause, you still ultimately support the British government and openly, so being critical isnt much these days.
I do believe so, and you may believe so because thats how it is. If the English got treated by their government the way the irish where treated, it would be suicide for any government, theyd not see power ever again. we unfortunately dont have that luxury, we're lumped with whoever they vote for.
Propaganda is propaganda, we arent the only ones using it, keep that in mind. Most interned wherent in the IRA. Thats a fact even your government has even accepted.
I remember when you use to say nationalists where always gurning, always whinging about being victims. Its all I've seen you do for the past few months now. Fact is mate you think its okay to shoot a woman (a mother at that) because shes a republican.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 4, 2007 16:49:06 GMT
Hang on Jim internment did not happen for thirty years no matter what you say, during internment innocent people were lifted. But you describe it as it happened for thirty odd years. Fact is I was not talking about internment, I clearly was talking about those in jail, who were guilty of their crimes. You know that but you try and difflect from what I said to bring in internmnet to help boost your arguement when you knew exactly who I was talking about.
On the victims, I did say republicans were always trying to be the victim while ignoring the horrors they inflicted on the people of N.Ireland, mainly the Unionist population. This is totally hypocritical as republicans have no room to moan about wrongful arrest, house searches, shoot to kill etc considering the barbaric sectarian campaign that they carried out.
On shooting the woman you left out her mother as I believe I included her as well. I said pity she wasn't taken out ages ago and I stand by that. Republicans should have got alot more of a taste of the medicene that they were dishing out. BTW when I say republicans I mean the ira etc incase you think I am referring to a republican that was not part of or did not support the iras campaign of violence.
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Post by Jim on Dec 4, 2007 17:32:04 GMT
Yes it did Wasp, it just didnt happen on as big a scale as it did during the falls road curfew. There was nothing stopping the RUC and a dozen British soldiers busting into your home at 4 in the morning with each end of the street blocked off by landrovers.
Yup, we do try the victim card, as do you, but I remember clearly one of the main unionist arguments against nationalists has been "stop your gurning".
Thats still shocking Wasp, I expected better from you, honestly. Thats stooping as low as the 'Ra.
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Post by Blue Angel on Dec 4, 2007 20:52:58 GMT
wasp at the time bernadette mcaliskey's family was attacked her daughter roisin was a young girl so you are effectively saying killing children was an okay tactic as they might grow up to be a potential threat to? I can't see how that makes you any better in any way than the IRA who you constantly keep calling scum or perhaps you could expalin to me how the Army who were happy to let that attack go ahead could claim the moral high ground - I am perhaps a bear of very little brain and finding it hard to understand - just saying is all.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 4, 2007 21:02:17 GMT
Is this national republican week for twisting what I say around??? You show me anywhere where I remotely said anything about killing children. I am deeply offended by your insulting comment. When it comes to killing children take a long hard look at the organisation you support where they targeted men, women and CHILDREN regularly.
So you keep saying, just incase you want to get at me somemore about calling them scum, well they are scum. So you say that the army let them go ahead without stopping it, no concrete proof of that. But her attack was simply poetic justice which she unfortunately survived.
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Post by Jim on Dec 5, 2007 0:21:04 GMT
an attack on a family is hardly going to leave children alive and well, at best they would be scarred for life, would you have what the IRA done on many, done to another? If you would your no better than the IRA you hate.
How can you have concrete proof? We call it as we see it, an attack happened while British soldiers where watching the house, that is a known fact, why didnt they stop it? Poetic justice my arse I'll keep this in mind next time you gurn about the IRA.
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You harp on enough about families suffering but in another thread you were calling for a mother to be shot because you didnt like her politics, wise up.