FAIR to return to Dublin

[Shades40]

I trust that Sentana will show willie and the boys how good it will be in a united Ireland

[Shades40]

Just don't ask him about the "Glenanne gang"

[An Fear Dubh]

Surely you are not suggesting that Willie had anything to do with this gang, or are you suggesting that some of his relatives did?
www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,,1995664,00.html

I have no problem with the Orange Order marching in Dublin, in fact I would like them to make it a weekly event. Having faced the Gardaí on numerous occassions, I would sooner face an RUC riot squad. But somehow I do not see the same beer swilling tattooed yobs that go hand in hand with Orange Order marches in Belfast having the stomach to travel to Dublin.

[Wasp]

Why not hold a photo or whatever of Robert McConnell? Was he murdered? Was he charged with the Dublin bombings or implicated where now he cannot defend himself? Do republicans hold pictures or whatever of people who were killed during the troubles? Do they hold pictures or whatever of dead terrorists? Do they do this in Belfast or wherever where republicans killed and maimed many people?

So why the difference and the double stance?

[Wasp]

Then if that's the case Robert McConnell is no different than any republican who got what they deserved for what they done. Now those deaths were not murder they also were poetic justice. Do republicans carry pictures of their so called heroes to Belfast city hall, have they marched through Belfast with these pictures? Have they marched through London city centre or Birmingham with pictures?

Have they he;d banners and flags with terrorist letters/names/members names on them while walking in these areas.

Now before you tell me there is a difference squire, there certainly is not, the ira planted many no warning bombs in the heart of Belfast, take bloody Friday for example and republicans have marched past these areas alot more times than fair in Dublin? Now there is your double stance. The shankhill is a staunchly loyalist area, to compare Dublin city centre as the opposite of a loyalist area is worrying words for Unionists. So according to your example, then Dublin city centre is a republican heartland with many republican terrorists and where these terrorists rule. If this is not the case for Dublin city centre then your comparison is absurd. Compare like with like, walking through Belfast city centre with walking through Dublin city centre.

[Jim]

Difference with Belfast is that its a split city, there are more republicans and unionists in Belfast than in Dublin, they grew up with it and have hardened to it. Dublin did not. Dublin is the city unionists would refuse to have anything to do with for decades then unionists want to march through the place with a picture of the man who bombed it.

Can you not see why people are against that?

[Wasp]

I know that Jim but that is not my point. Republicans are complaining abot R. McConnel while they do the very samething here alot more often than fair have in Dublin. It doesn't matter whether Belfast is split, does that make it of for republicans to walk right poast the places they have committed mass murder and maiming with their placards? The double standards by republicans is unbelievable. Even Setantas claim that republicans have never done that when you know they have, many times. It doesn't matter whether a city is split or not, carrying pictures of those who committed atrocities is the same in a split city or a united city.

[Republic]

It takes a special kind of prick to plant a bomb in completely civilian area.
If any such bomber is commemorated in Dublin, then FAIR should never ever be allowed march in Dublin again.

I can completely sympathise with anyone who takes exception to terrorists being commemorated.

Setanta hiding behind definitions is cowardly.
The PIRA were terrorists.
I accept that some members may have originally joined with aims of being a freedom fighter, but the way the campaign was conducted shows that the orgainsation as a whole, was a terrorist one.

And don't come back with a load of shite about the bombing of Berlin during WW2 being terrorism or something similar. Its a common response from republicans and its flawed. They were disgraceful acts by the allied forces, but they were not terrorists.

Dublin would never have been bombed if that equally despicable UVF if the PIRA had not conducted such a campaign.
I am not excusing the UVF, they can all rot in hell.
But its a bit hypocritcal for republicans to bomb cities and then complain when their opponent does the same.


WASP I sincerely hope you will not be marching with any group who possibly intend to carry a picture of a UVF bomber through the streets of Dublin.

[Wasp]

First of all he was never convicted of any bombing. I never even heard of him till recently and read up on it. Setanta you compared the Shankhill to Dublin city centre, not me so I was not scaremongering, I was using your example. Republicans have marched many times with placerds with the names of terrorists and the name of the organisation right past and through the very places that that organisation carried out mass murder and maiming.

It doesn't matter whether it is a persons name or the group they were in, the result and hurt is still the same.

I am totally against the name of any dead terrorist being held up among victims. On Frazer and Billy Wright, what exactly did he say? Was he talking about when he had turned to Christianity?

This is what was said

Willie: Basically what I said about Billy Wright was: he grew up in Markethill, he went to the school in Markethill, I knew him for a short space of time while that was going on, and at that time he was a Christian, and actually was going round the doors giving out Christian tracts.

Presenter: Well later on he was responsible for upwards of two dozen sectarian killings*.

Willie: That was not the point I was asked about at that particular time.

Presenter: He's someone that you have a lot of time for.

Willie: The man's dead now, they're going through a court case and he was actually killed inside a prison, unlike a lot of the murder cases that we have to deal with, he was serving time for whatever crime he had committed...

This is Hardly what you are trying to imply.

If I can go I will do as this is my intention. BUT I am not there for anyone other than the victims and I would in no way be involved with pictures of anyone or group that was involved in targeting and killing innocents especially because of religion. Many of the people who intendd to march do not support loyalist rerrorists but they are not responsible if someone does. It is no different up here as when people wanted a peaceful march but republicans got involved and violence erupted and before anyone says it this happens on both sides and bothsides are guilty of it.

[An Fear Dubh]

I think we need to be careful here, and not get ourselves be drawn into adopting positions that are not our own, but positions that are adopted due to a knee jerk reaction to proposed events from opposed groups.

I think at heart Wasp's intentions are good ones. I think it is unfair to push on him scenarios that have not happened or might happen, and expect him to then reverse his support for the victims. I think support for victims is honourable, my reservation in this case is the selective approach to victims, or the hierarchy of victims. Yes everyone should consider the implications, and I have seen Wasp (elsewhere) voiced some reservations that others have expressed here.

While some leaders or representatives might not be the ones that please the 'other side', we can not dictate or expect that a representative to take a step away from leadership just because the 'other side' do not like him/her. As this can be viewed as a tactic to avoid confronting the issue being presented by the representative. The onus is on the group represented by the individual to ensure that the representative does express views that represent the group. If they do not publicly recoil from publicly expressed views then we must assume that these views are also ones that are shared by the group.

This is the choice of all people who wish to support one issue. It is never one issue but comes in a package along with other issues. And we might all want to 'cherry pick' and only take the bits that suit us, but we must also accept that such a position is not possible, we have to take the whole package or none at all.

[Wasp]

Setanta I never ever said Billy Wright was innocent. As far as Willie Frazer leading the march is concerned you said someone else should do it as he won't be taken seriously etc or words to that effect. Isn't this the exact same thing I said to do with your director of outreach?

You wrote 'Tell Willie to take a step back and put someone who isn't a warped bigot up front as your spokesperson.'

You know I can name plenty within the republican movement who are warped bigots and even worse, murderers. So for any republican to state that Frazer is a warped bigot is being totally hypocritical and remember how Willie Frazer and his family have suffered. How many of us would not be affected negatively by such heartbreak?


On bands attending I have already made myself clear on that but do not put bands in the same bracket as all the members are either uvf/uda/lvf or whatever, this is simply untrue and the same goes for the OO.

[Blue Angel]

My own take on this is informed by FD's points about if we pick and choose who is 'acceptable' to be the public face of groups on either side we will go nowhere. Now personally I think Frazer is a bigot and the excuse of suffering affecting him negatively to be a copout as I believe it explains his attitudes but in no way excuses them. On the other hand if as FD says Frazer is deemed as unacceptable to talk to he will win by presenting that as a refusal to deal with him so it is playing into his hands.

My personal feeling on the rioting that attended the first march was that republican sinn fein and others yet again scored an own goal there by trying to be super-republicans. I firmly believe in freedom of speech, I detest Frazer but I believe he has a right to be heard and we cannot extend that right only to people we agree or like with as the results of that can be seen all around us. Frazer's website (which I regularly watch) has long disturbed me, as it attempts to show how Frazer does not mind 'good' Catholics (the subtext on the site seeming to be that a 'good Catholic does not shout too loudly about anything) and it has some woefully innaccurate nonsense (such as the assertin that the Irish state helped repair U-Boats during WW2) repeated as confirmed facts. Unfortunately, the republican movement too has it's idiots and I would conced WASP's points that there are bigots on this side as well who are convictions stem more from tribalism than ever thinking abou the situation.

[An Fear Dubh]

It is too confusing to reply using the numerous quotes to quotes response. But let me attempt to do it this way.

I think you (Setanta) have unfairly pushed Wasp into adopting positions that elsewhere and previously he has not agreed with.

I am all for honest debate and confronting double standards and hypocrisy. But if someone openly states their reason for supporting in this case the 'Love Ulster II' march - support for the victims. You (Setanta) brought in the future possible scenario of a Robert McConnell picture being displayed (I really hate make belief, we have enough facts without adding to the pile), and Willie Fraizer's views on Billy Wright as reasons not to support a 'Love Ulster II' march. Then it is logical that Wasp will defend the 'Love Ulster II' march.

I do not know if Willie Fraizer is the leader or the biggest shouter. But it is obvious he is the one the media are using because they know his comments are most likely to provoke a response. If he is not the spokesperson for this march then we need to be told who is. But until otherwise we can assume he is the representative for the march and must accept him as the representative. And if the message Willie sends is "Willie Fraizer is sticking it to them", then he has exploited and tarnished the Victims March and all the good is undone. But that is a matter for the march organizers to workout for themselves, not something that can be dictated or negotiated by those outside. The same argument can be used for Brendan MacCionnaith (McKenna) the Garvaghy Road spokesperson, so we need to ensure we are not hypocritical.

I think that during marches in support of Republican prisoner demands for 'political status' (Bobby Sands etc). That most people there did not support the IRA campaign but that point gets misted over. I think that Anti-War marches during Vietnam in America were about bringing their loved ones home. They were not anti-American or against American troops, but that gets misted over. If Wasp is the silent majority and Fraizer is the vocal minority and the majority do nothing to curb him. Then like it or not they are by their silence reinforcing what he spouts. I do not think you can link votes cast during an election with support at a public march. The two do not always go hand in hand.

I do not accept Loyalist paramilitaries as innocent victims, nor do I accept republicans activists as innocent victims. But if a march is for victims and Loyalist paramilitaries are allowed to be part of it, then those that attend are supporting loyalist paramilitaries. The same as those who supported the republican prisoners were supporting other republican objectives.

I am not sure of the bands myself, but I have been told that bands are part of loyalist culture, so I must accept that. I do also note that some republican marches have mirrored loyalism with military style bands too. I suppose it is how the bands conduct themselves and what songs they play. Surely we are not expecting people to adopt a sombre display. I think of Republican commemorations for Republican dead in Belfast at Easter time. I think of Bodenstown and the Wolfe Tone commemoration.

If you feel strongly enough about an issue then you will want to protest/march. Now elements/groups/political parties will attempt to manipulate the support for the one issue to link it to other issues. And it may mean you are giving your support to more than you intended to or wanted to. So the choice is for those wishing to attend a march is how far are you going to stretch your support for that one issue, until the other add ons become too much.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am glad Setanta has cleared up some of those points. We must wait and see how this march unfolds. When we start to look into the future and make assumptions on events yet to happen it is difficult to formulate a definative position on moving senerios.

If Willie Fraizer is a bigot or not is a matter of opinion, and mitigating circumstances does not excuse anything. The point is that the 'Love Ulster II' are happy to have Willie representing them. They have no issue with any of his views, therefore it is reasonable to assume that most hold similar views.

[Wasp]

Setanta I have personally suffered because of terrorists, I also have had friends who lost loved ones because of terrorists and none of them including myself are what you are implying to do with W. Frazer. I am sorry to hear about your dad and mum inlaw, but the difference here is that perhaps they were not killed/died in a sectarian/terrorist attack. AND that is no disrepspect whatsoever to you, your wife or your family circle at your tragic loss.