Irish Language Act-One Opinion

[Jim]

anfeardubh said:

Most seem to agree that laziness (or some might say the demands of day to day life has added pressures on our time commitments) contributes to our inability to learn the Irish language.

That said I am unsure of the positive aspect that highlighting some minor discrepancies of colleagues in their use of some Irish does to encourage those with even less to attempt a learning class. I feel this attitude is prevalent and is not constructive towards making the language a living breating thing everywhere rather than only in selected areas.

I know I cringe as I listen to the stilted tones of Gerry Adams as he stumbles through his obligitory opening comments 'as gaeilge' (in Irish). He is not a true 'gaeilgeoir' (Irish speaker), but the point he is making maybe lost on you. It is important to use what little you have, even if that is wrong.

Having been through school and only learnt a smattering it was not until during prison that got a better and workable understanding. I have often encountered the elitist attitude, oh you ex-prisoners all speak gaeilge the same! What wrong? No you use slang and improper grammer. Ah we speak like a language should be used, not like newsreaders and tv presenters who must speak differently to those sitting at home watching the tv.

No wonder your Cumann will still be making those motions long after you leave. How about you tell them to get real and broaden the appeal of the language not limit its appeal.

I have to disagree with you there mate. On the point about fadas, if people are going to learn the language they should spell the words correctly when they KNOW the fada should be there. Fair enough if you forget on most words like I do but just about everyone knows theres a fada on Sinn Féin and theres no excuse for it. If you learn french or spanish you'll be expected to use their fadas, if you learn Japanese you'll be expected to type in hiragana and katakana, if you learn chinese you'll not be learning in Pin'yin (romanisation) because they all have parts of their alphabet that are mandatory, Irish is no different. If people want to be lazy about learning the Irish language maybe they should take up German or something, thats a bit more closer to English.

I don't see much wrong with Adam's Irish, infact he's very understandable to me because he's using a northern dialect of the language. Anywhere in Belfast that teaches Irish teaches it in the way he speaks because thats how its spoken here. I've been speaking Irish since I was 3 and thats exactly how I speak the language, just like you described, spoken like a person, not a weather broadcaster. It might all sound weird to a Dubliner or someone from Cork, but that works both ways.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not trying to belittle Gerry Adam's Irish, I am highlighting that he is not a 'Gaeilgeoir', and the words do not flow off his tongue in the same way as English does. But that has not stopped him or held him back to his credit. And the fact that he is not a 'Gaeilgeoir' and has still persisted is the point I am making. If he was limited to being totally correct or nothing by some Cumann motion, how would that make the point to those thinking of learning it, how would that promote the language?

Yes, people should learn it correctly and not some pidgeon version. People who want to promote the language especially political parties, need to look at why some express an interest in it but do not take the leap into learning it. They need to make it more accessible and remove barriers and obsticles that put people off making that leap.

From my own experience I have encountered elitism among those who teach and promote the learning of the language, I have also encountered some very good people too. Sometimes this elitism is directed at myself and sometimes it is directed at others hoping to create an ally in myself. Something like Bearhunter expressed, and sometimes because I represent a northern gaelic revival that threatens their existence in cushy unproductive jobs that is susposed to promote the language. Snipping over the use of a fada or using the correct genitive case is petty and small minded. Are we looking to promote a living language or are we trying to promote some ancient lost culture? Because in the Irish schools in Belfast it is about creating a living language, and while teacher will correct mistakes in the classroom, teacher should not correct grammer in the playground.

If you still feel Jim that is the wrong approach then we will have to agree to disagree.

[An Fear Dubh]

I came across another form of elitism the other day in one of the papers forget which one. (A southern one). The journalist was getting stuck into the Irish schools in Belfast. He said that they were false enviornments. That the pupils were mostly from families with nationalist aspirations and the parents had grasp of Irish was limited. The teachers were ex-prisoners or taught by ex-prisoners (come on that is too much credit, how many prisoners were there that learnt Irish??), and that the local community did not speak Irish so the opportunity for the teacher to develop their own use of the language was very limited. Thus the teacher could only speak to other teachers (of course ex-prisoners who seem to be everywhere - I added that) and a few local gaeilgeoirí but chances were slim. Thus the language in Belfast lived in a closed enviornment, unlike in the Gaeltachts in the south and Donegal. Where the local community did use the language. Thus the pupils from these schools left them with a hybrid acedemic version of Irish that few spoke or understood outside of those Belfast schools.

Now of course this is lightly peppered with the truth but to dismiss the thrust and boost that these schools have provided to the language smacks of regional envy. And it assumes that people of Belfast get nose bleeds if they leave the city. Most of these teachers and many families head off to various Gaeltachts throughout Ireland. Do you think when they get there they do not try to engage the locals, and learn and exchange views?

The language is for everyone regardless of religion, politics, or where you live.

[An Fear Dubh]

Sorry I misled you when I could not remember where I read it, but I remember now. It was a letter in the letters page of the Irish News. There is an ongoing debate about the language and one arguement is that like Hebrew, Irish should be simplified to allow it to become a living language. And one of the guys rebutting attacked the gaelscoileanna basically with the above.
Another guyy is saying that this is the time to revamp and aspirations amoung other things are barriers to learning.

I'll give you an excert from todays letter.
He is talking about how Hebrew was made into what is spoken today in Israel. But he says not an 'Esperanto' language.
"If I want to translate - 'I did not see the woman' is it not adequate to write 'Ní faca mé an bean' even if I say (and pronounce) 'Ní fhaca mé an bhean?' If in time aspirations etc disappear from the spoken language as well will it be any great loss?"

Not the greatest of agruements I know, but there is a strong swell for this sort of revamp. And rather than dismiss such things we need to give it serious consideration (before we dismiss them!!

[mactalla]

anfeardubh said:

Sorry I misled you when I could not remember where I read it, but I remember now. It was a letter in the letters page of the Irish News. There is an ongoing debate about the language and one arguement is that like Hebrew, Irish should be simplified to allow it to become a living language. And one of the guys rebutting attacked the gaelscoileanna basically with the above.
Another guyy is saying that this is the time to revamp and aspirations amoung other things are barriers to learning.

I'll give you an excert from todays letter.
He is talking about how Hebrew was made into what is spoken today in Israel. But he says not an 'Esperanto' language.
"If I want to translate - 'I did not see the woman' is it not adequate to write 'Ní faca mé an bean' even if I say (and pronounce) 'Ní fhaca mé an bhean?' If in time aspirations etc disappear from the spoken language as well will it be any great loss?"

Not the greatest of agruements I know, but there is a strong swell for this sort of revamp. And rather than dismiss such things we need to give it serious consideration (before we dismiss them!!

None of this would be an issue if children were learning the language, as children all over the world learn their native tongues....in the home!

Yes, learning a new language, as an adult, is difficult. Yes, the construction of Irish and other Celtic languages is different from English, and therefore frustrating and confusing, at first.

The truth is, Irish is a FAR more regular language than is English, and once the rules are learned, they vary very little. Irish relies heavily on prepositions and idiom, which can take a while to sort, but Irish is a language of "others", English is a language of "ME, ME, ME"! English is aggressive and possessive. Irish is poetic and giving.

Take out the aspirations/lenitions and what goes next? Sentence structure so that it falls in with English construction? Or we come up with new words, so that instead of "If it is your will" we get a single word....please? Or "May there be goodness at you" becomes Thanks?

NO THANK YOU!

Leave the language alone! Change how it is taught.

[Jim]

anfeardubh said:

I came across another form of elitism the other day in one of the papers forget which one. (A southern one). The journalist was getting stuck into the Irish schools in Belfast. He said that they were false enviornments. That the pupils were mostly from families with nationalist aspirations and the parents had grasp of Irish was limited. The teachers were ex-prisoners or taught by ex-prisoners (come on that is too much credit, how many prisoners were there that learnt Irish??), and that the local community did not speak Irish so the opportunity for the teacher to develop their own use of the language was very limited. Thus the teacher could only speak to other teachers (of course ex-prisoners who seem to be everywhere - I added that) and a few local gaeilgeoirí but chances were slim. Thus the language in Belfast lived in a closed enviornment, unlike in the Gaeltachts in the south and Donegal. Where the local community did use the language. Thus the pupils from these schools left them with a hybrid acedemic version of Irish that few spoke or understood outside of those Belfast schools.

Now of course this is lightly peppered with the truth but to dismiss the thrust and boost that these schools have provided to the language smacks of regional envy. And it assumes that people of Belfast get nose bleeds if they leave the city. Most of these teachers and many families head off to various Gaeltachts throughout Ireland. Do you think when they get there they do not try to engage the locals, and learn and exchange views?

The language is for everyone regardless of religion, politics, or where you live.

Elitism in the irish language is what will kill the irish language. This whole holier than thou attitude can fuck right off.

I went to those irish language schools from I was 3 untill I was 16. I dont see what how they are a false environment when you are speaking the language from 9 to 3 every day. Sure, we didnt like having to speak in irish all the time and felt like rebels when we spoke English to each other at lunchtime back when we were 13, but what do you expect from kids?

The parents do have nationalist aspirations and there probably was a few ex-prisoners as teachers, why should that matter? Why is it even important? they where all qualified teachers.

He has a point about communities using the language in donegal, but what he doesnt realise is that belfast irish and donegal irish are basically the same, only the accent is different. And also, most people on this bloody island seem to think things must be a utopia for them to be right and it annoys me. You have regional dialects in every language on this planet and Irish is no different. Belfast Irish is different from Dublin Irish and Dublin Irish is different from Mayo Irish and etc.

Elitists will kill this language. I've spoken the language since I was three and how dare some pleb come up and tell me in a newspaper that the language I speak isnt "real" irish. fuck him.