Five thousand Irish soldiers

[Wasp]

Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.

One of them, 92-year-old Phil Farrington, took part in the D-Day landings and helped liberate the German death camp at Bergen-Belsen - but he wears his medals in secret.

Even to this day, he has nightmares that he will be arrested by the authorities and imprisoned for his wartime service.

"They would come and get me, yes they would," he said in a frail voice at his home in the docks area of Dublin.

And his 25-year-old grandson, Patrick, confirmed: "I see the fear in him even today, even after 65 years."

Mr Farrington's fears are not groundless.

He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

They were formally dismissed from the Irish army, stripped of all pay and pension rights, and prevented from finding work by being banned for seven years from any employment paid for by state or government funds.

A special "list" was drawn up containing their names and addresses, and circulated to every government department, town hall and railway station - anywhere the men might look for a job.

It was referred to in the Irish parliament - the Dail - at the time as a "starvation order", and for many of their families the phrase became painfully close to the truth.

Treated as outcasts
Paddy Reid - whose father and uncle both fought the Japanese at the battle of Kohima Ridge - recalls a post-war childhood in Dublin spent "moving from one slum to another".

Maybe one slice of bread a day and that would be it - no proper clothing, no proper heating.

"My father was blacklisted and away all the time, picking turnips or whatever work he could get. It's still painful to remember. We were treated as outcasts."

John Stout served with the Irish Guards armoured division which raced to Arnhem to capture a key bridge.

He also fought in the Battle of the Bulge, ending the war as a commando.

On his return home to Cork, however, he was treated as a pariah. "What they did to us was wrong. I know that in my heart. They cold-shouldered you. They didn't speak to you.

"They didn't understand why we did what we did. A lot of Irish people wanted Germany to win the war - they were dead up against the British."

It was only 20 years since Ireland had won its independence after many centuries of rule from London, and the Irish list of grievances against Britain was long - as Gerald Morgan, long-time professor of history at Trinity College, Dublin, explains.

"The uprisings, the civil war, all sorts of reneged promises - I'd estimate that 60% of the population expected or indeed hoped the Germans would win.

"To prevent civil unrest, Eamon de Valera had to do something. Hence the starvation order and the list."

Ireland adopted a policy of strict neutrality which may have been necessary politically or even popular, but a significant minority strongly backed Britain, including tens of thousands of Irish civilians who signed up to fight alongside the 5,000 Irish servicemen who switched uniforms.

Confidential list
Until I showed him the list - the size of a slim phone directory and marked "confidential" - John Stout had not realised his name was included.

But after the war it quickly became apparent that he could not get work and was not welcome in Ireland - so he returned to Britain.

"I feel very betrayed about how we were treated, it was wrong and even today they should say sorry for the problems we had to endure. We never even got to put our case or argue why it was unjust," said Mr Stout.

And the list itself is far from accurate, according to Robert Widders, who has written a book about the deserters' treatment called Spitting on a Soldier's Grave.

"It contains the names of men who were to be punished but who'd already been killed in action, but not the names of men who deserted the Irish army to spend their war years as burglars or thieves," he said.

In recent months, a number of Irish parliamentarians have begun pressing their government to issue a pardon to the few deserters who remain alive.

"What happened to them was vindictive and not only a stain on their honour but on the honour of Ireland," TD Gerald Nash said.

But for those nonagenarians who helped win the war but lost so much by doing so, time is of the essence, and it is running out fast.

Face the Facts - Deserters Deserted will be on BBC Radio 4 at 12.30GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012 and will be available to listen to afterwards online.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211

[leeside]

In hindsight what happened to these guys was disgraceful but the fact is is that they deserted. What would happen a british soldier if he deserted to another army at that period? Shot dead?

[Wasp]

Not so sure about that, if they deserted to fight the likes of hitler and help save millions of lives, help Europe not be taken over by a cruel monster like him then I would be shocked if anything was to happen to them like what happened these soldiers especially considering many more of their fellow countrymen also joined the same army.

5000 is a huge number of solders to desert and perhaps their gov. should have woke up and smelt the coffee.

That aside I was shocked to hear how they were treated. Wnader what the reaction would have been if the British had done this to these brave Irishmen, say if Britian was still in power in ireland?

[Wasp]

The Irish government has finally announced that it is giving active consideration to exonerating the thousands of Irish army deserters who joined the British Army during the Second World War. In 1945, after a number of courts martial of such soldiers, the Dublin government announced that it would no longer prosecute deserters. Instead, they would be barred from state employment or any social welfare for life. Effectively, these Irishmen who had fought for the freedom of Europe were exiled forever from their homeland.

The reconsideration of this matter was prompted by a petition organised by the “Irish Soldiers’ Pardons Campaign”. According to its website, the campaign was prompted by an article I wrote on the subject last May in The Irish Independent. While researching the fate of returning Irish soldiers in 1945, I had come across newspaper reports of the courts martial of Irish army deserters. Quite independently, a former British soldier now living in Ireland, Robert Widders, has written a book on the subject.

Some 5,000 wartime deserters from the Irish army joined the British forces. In 1945, as the moral cause of the Allies was made irrefutable with the discovery of Belsen, Buchenwald and Dachau, word spread among the Irish deserters in the British Army that their government had declared an amnesty. But instead, hundreds of them were arrested as they returned home. After a series of rather embarrassing courts martial, the Irish government decided on a mass and non-judicial punishment, which almost certainly had no basis in law.

When questioned about this, Oscar Traynor, the Irish minister for defence at the time, declared: “I am afraid that I cannot share the apparent solicitude for deserters. They are, in my opinion, worthy of very little consideration.” However, he added, it wasn’t worth the trouble of dealing with them “as they deserved”. Instead, he announced the blanket ban on all state jobs and on welfare. And so, 67 years on, justice of a kind is being done to these Irish soldiers of the King – and not least because of the visit to Ireland of his daughter, the Queen, last May.

Such has been the impact on the Irish psyche of those remarkable days that it is now possible to introduce a new chronological divide in Irish political life: BRV and ARV. For, Before the Royal Visit, no Irish government would ever have contemplated pardoning Irish army deserters who had served the British. But ARV, no one in Ireland would simply dismiss the notion out of hand. And since I have been campaigning for the greater part of my journalistic life on behalf of the Irish soldiers of the Crown during the two World Wars, I feel I can speak with some authority on the subject.

The transformation of opinion in Ireland has been extraordinary. This, after all, was a country in which the government censor banned British magazines that celebrated too extravagantly the Queen’s Coronation in 1953.

Any expression of regard for Britain or the Royal family was considered deeply unpatriotic. For much of the 20th century, relations between Ireland and Britain were defined on the one hand by an insecure political class, goaded by a loud-mouthed caste of nationalist braggarts in Ireland, and on the other by a truly woeful, almost pathologically amnesiac political class in Britain. What ordinary Irish people wanted – easy relations with their nearest neighbour, which was also the home of many of their kin – was infinitely more difficult to proclaim. And of course, the perfectly idiotic quarter-century IRA war made the declaration of such quiet, decent sentiments almost impossible.

Different days: for ARV, it is commonplace for Irish politicians to refer to the British as “our friends and allies”. Admittedly, nothing in life is immutable: the often sad, silly and sordid relations between Britain and Ireland should tell us that. But the gains resulting from the royal visit to Ireland are as irreversible as the regrettably non-Newtonian laws of historical dynamics ever allow. The health of the Duke of Edinburgh over Christmas was of serious concern in Ireland; BRV, it might just have got a slight – and perhaps even disdainful – mention on Irish radio or television.

It’s still too early to say that the 5,000 Irish deserters who served with the British in the War will be posthumously “reprieved” by the Irish government. In one sense, that matters less than that they are on the agenda, that most Irish people acknowledge that the cause they served was just, and that Irish valour in the service of the Crown was exceptional. Indeed, in May 1945, as the first of the returning Irish soldiers were being arrested, the British Ministry of Defence announced the wartime award of the Military Cross to 63 soldiers from independent, neutral Ireland. (Some neutrality, what?) So it was appropriate that the very first state function attended by President Michael D Higgins, Ireland’s new head of state, in November was the Remembrance Sunday service in Dublin.

The final step in Ireland’s journey of reconciliation with its British military past is for the Dublin government to accept that those Irishmen who fought for the freedom of Europe deserved better treatment at home.

[leeside]

Not so sure about that, if they deserted to fight the likes of hitler and help save millions of lives, help Europe not be taken over by a cruel monster like him then I would be shocked if anything was to happen to them like what happened these soldiers especially considering many more of their fellow countrymen also joined the same army.

As i said, wasp hindsight is a great thing. However, deserting your army and joining another army is a punishable offence regardless of how 'heroic' those actions were. They got off lightly relatively speaking. Had they been members of the British army and deserted they would have been executed.

I do agree though, the way they were treated by their communities when they returned was shameful.

5000 is a huge number of solders to desert and perhaps their gov. should have woke up and smelt the coffee.

and realised what?

That aside I was shocked to hear how they were treated. Wnader what the reaction would have been if the British had done this to these brave Irishmen, say if Britian was still in power in ireland?

When Britain was still in power here, any Irishman who was joined in the British army and decided to desert would have been summarily executed had they been caught.

[Wasp]

As i said, wasp hindsight is a great thing. However, deserting your army and joining another army is a punishable offence regardless of how 'heroic' those actions were. They got off lightly relatively speaking. Had they been members of the British army and deserted they would have been executed.

Do you really think the British would have executed 5000 Englishmen for deserting to join many other Englishmen to fight the likes of hitler? No chance especially when most of Europe and further afield were united in defeating hitler. I firmly believe that England or anyother country would have turned a blind eye to soldiers joining thousands of their fellow countrymen.

I dont think any of those soldiers who survived would say they got off lightly.

I do agree though, the way they were treated by their communities when they returned was shameful.

Agreed.

and realised what?

That they maybe made the wrong decision by not joining the allies in the fight against hitler, 5000 of their own troops must have felt very different about ireland joining the allies along with thousands more of their countrymen.

When Britain was still in power here, any Irishman who was joined in the British army and decided to desert would have been summarily executed had they been caught.

Nonesense considering we are talking about thousands joining thousands more countrymen to defeat hitler. IF they couldnt join the fight against hitler along with most of europe and let the allies do the dirty work then surely at least allowing soldiers to leave and join allied armies would be the least they can do.

[leeside]

Do you really think the British would have executed 5000 Englishmen for deserting to join many other Englishmen to fight the likes of hitler? No chance especially when most of Europe and further afield were united in defeating hitler. I firmly believe that England or anyother country would have turned a blind eye to soldiers joining thousands of their fellow countrymen.

Wasp, basically your speculating about what the British army or British people might have done or acted had it been in the position Ireland was in and had a number of their troops deserted and joined up with a different army to fight a war that ye weren't even involved in. You don't know for certain. You're guessing.

At that time, Wasp the British government was seen as more of an enemy for the government here than Germany ever was. You must understand that that is how alot of people thought back then. You seem to forget all the shit that had happened between Ireland and Britain before then. Ireland was run by DeVelera and his government at that time. There was still alot of bitterness between both governments. It was complex. It wasn't as straight forward as you're making out.

That they maybe made the wrong decision by not joining the allies in the fight against hitler, 5000 of their own troops must have felt very different about ireland joining the allies along with thousands more of their countrymen.

As a new nation, Ireland made the absolute right decision by not declaring war on germany in WW2. By not joining the allies as a nation was absolutely the right thing to do. We couldnt afford it financially, logistically or any other way. Its very easy for you to say that when you were part of a country that had probably the 5th strongest army in the world as well as being one of the wealthiest nations. It wasn't about morals or rights and wrongs it was about self preservation.

I have the utmost respect for any Irishman who fought Hitler regardless of what army uniform he wore. And as i said already, the way some were treated when they returned was absolutely shameful.

Nonesense considering we are talking about thousands joining thousands more countrymen to defeat hitler. IF they couldnt join the fight against hitler along with most of europe and let the allies do the dirty work then surely at least allowing soldiers to leave and join allied armies would be the least they can do.

Again, wasp... You are looking at it through the eyes of someone who was part of the British Empire and had been at war with Hitler. Its very easy for you to throw shit at Ireland at that time when you had your big brother across the water who was going to protect you and finance you all the way. Very easy indeed. We were a tiny, poor struggling nation who had just been independent for less than 20 years. The last thing we needed at that time was to suddenly declare war on Germany.

BTW, I take back my ' everyone would have been executed' claim as that was a bit over the top. However, they deserted . There were laws against that regardless of who the bad guy they went to fight was.

[Wasp]

Wasp, basically your speculating about what the British army or British people might have done or acted had it been in the position Ireland was in and had a number of their troops deserted and joined up with a different army to fight a war that ye weren't even involved in. You don't know for certain. You're guessing.

A very good guess at that. Imagine it came out that Britain done that to 5000 of its troops who wanted to help the allies defeat hitler with?

At that time, Wasp the British government was seen as more of an enemy for the government here than Germany ever was. You must understand that that is how alot of people thought back then.

I understand that and I think its absolutely wrong. Let the allies do the dirty work, nevermind what hitler is doing and coming our way to do just make sure we continue with our hatred of the Brits. But I will not forget the thousands who fought alongside the British and all their families who had to live daily with the knowledge their loved ones may not be coming back. I find it even more remarkable that these brave men and their families were shunned by their own country, no commemoration of them, instead an annula commemoration was held for a nazi collaborator.

You seem to forget all the shit that had happened between Ireland and Britain before then. Ireland was run by DeVelera and his government at that time. There was still alot of bitterness between both governments. It was complex. It wasn't as straight forward as you're making out.

I fully understand that, I fully understand that times were different and we cant judge people now for the wrongdoings of others years ago.

As a new nation, Ireland made the absolute right decision by not declaring war on germany in WW2. By not joining the allies as a nation was absolutely the right thing to do. We couldnt afford it financially, logistically or any other way.

Totally disagree, Ireland could have helped in many other ways such as providing toops etc but they chose to be the cowards of Europe. The ira war journal praised the actions of hitler, stated they would welcome the German forces etc which is in stark contrast to what the allies were doing and again not forgetting what many of their fellow countrymen were doing. Dont get me wrong I dont hold those decisions against ordinary Irish people or the current gov etc.

Its very easy for you to say that when you were part of a country that had probably the 5th strongest army in the world as well as being one of the wealthiest nations. It wasn't about morals or rights and wrongs it was about self preservation.

Again shunning their soldiers and those other irishmen who went off to fight was horrendous and instead of shunning them Ireland should have heaped praise on them. Instead they would rather send their sympathies to nazi Germany on the news of hitlers death.

I have the utmost respect for any Irishman who fought Hitler regardless of what army uniform he wore. And as i said already, the way some were treated when they returned was absolutely shameful.

I am in full agreement with you here and I would love someday for these soldiers to be able to tell their stories about the war, their families and how they coped etc.

Again, wasp... You are looking at it through the eyes of someone who was part of the British Empire and had been at war with Hitler. Its very easy for you to throw shit at Ireland at that time when you had your big brother across the water who was going to protect you and finance you all the way. Very easy indeed. We were a tiny, poor struggling nation who had just been independent for less than 20 years. The last thing we needed at that time was to suddenly declare war on Germany.

I can see what you are saying financially, but no-one can say that Ireland couldnt have done more because they could have. Helping those who fought hitler when they returned home would have been a start. That is the point I am trying to make.

BTW, I take back my ' everyone would have been executed' claim as that was a bit over the top. However, they deserted . There were laws against that regardless of who the bad guy they went to fight was.

Fair enough.

[leeside]

Before I reply to all your points, I want to say one thing...

Wasp, we have come along way with regards to being civil and respectful to eachother but unless you retract the following statement;

but they chose to be the cowards of Europe

then frankly we are back to square one. I don't know if you're trying to wind me up but I've never been so insulted by anything you have written on here as much as I have by that comment.

[Wasp]

We have come along way and I think its great so please let me explain. First of all I am not trying to wind you up because that would get me nowhere, it would get us nowhere and I would have zero chance of trying to get you to understand the PUL position more.

To do with my replies not only did I praise thousands of Irishmen but I also praised their families which is many thousands more so my comment has feck all to do with anyone Irish, my comment was to do with the irish government.

Put it this way I have no problem saying the British as in government were wankers at onetime or another upto the present day so I really dont understand why my comment about the irish gov. would upset you when I praised thousands of Irishmen, women and children.

Look at my opinions on that wanker Blair and thats only one example, look at my opinion of many of our current politicians(Unionist) etc so in all honesty I am confused why you would take offence or think I am trying to wind you up. I really would like you to explain that to me, I am not being smart or anything like it.

It feels to me that because I am from the PUL community you cant stand me saying anything about the irish gov no matter how wrong they were/are, I could be wrong here but I really do wnat to understand your reaction.

[Wasp]

Assembly motion supports pardon for Ireland's WWII deserters

The NI assembly is to consider a motion later to support a pardon for soldiers from the Irish Republic who deserted to fight for Britain during World War II.

Ireland was neutral during the conflict, but around 10% of its armed forces deserted to fight fascism.

On their return, many were placed on an official blacklist, banning them from jobs, benefits or pensions.

DUP MLA Peter Weir is supporting the motion and said it was time for a pardon.

"I want to show the solidarity of the Northern Ireland Assembly to a very good campaign which has been put forward by people in the Irish Republic to try and get a pardon and indeed honour and recognition for those brave men and women who served the Irish Republic in the Second World War against facism," he said.

"I don't see why the parties should not roll in behind this, this was very much an abuse of human rights.

"These were people who were denied employment and welfare which in many cases were enforced with starvation orders where families went hungry as a result of their commitment to the British army.

"I think this is an historic injustice which needs to be embraced."

Around 5,000 soldiers were formally dismissed from the Irish army for serving with the British.

Irish senator Mary Ann O'Brien met with Ireland's minister of justice, Alan Shatter, before Christmas with regard to the issue of a pardon and said he was actively working on the matter.

She expects to hear from him again in March and voiced her support for the assembly motion.

"We are lucky we are not Germany here, because we have to remember that these men deserted the Irish army to join the British army to fight for all of us, for our democracy and our future and for the freedom of Europe," she added.

"They came back here to find no hope of employment, there was terrible poverty but they were literally blacklisted.

"I can tell you something worse if they were unlucky enough to have been killed, their children would possibly have ended up in an orphanage as the poverty would have been such the widow would not have been allowed any allowance as she too was blacklisted.

"The child was tarnished with special letters after his or her name when it went into the orphanage so the orphanage would know it was the child of a deserter, so it would get special treatment."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16680453

[Wasp]

Fair play to Mary O' Brien

[collina]

The British government of course had thousands of deserters shot dead during WWI and WWII. No trials either. War is brutal and Britain had been warring with everyone and anyone for the best part of a millennium. Britain's pursuit of Hitler only started post-Sudetenland and after events like Krystal nacht so its claims are a little hollow.

I myself hate wars and fighting but I can understand why some find desertion unforgivable.

However on the thread subject. Every little town in Ireland has a memorial to the local men who died in the wars, so I think some sort of National Memorial is required for those who were treated badly.

Clearly these cases are not easy for us in the Southern part of the Island. On one hand we had a very long and brutal occupation by our nearest neighbor on the other hand it had become clear that Jews in Europe were being slaughtered and our government failed to help. Develera's claim that world wars only served to decimate small nations was true, however there was also a political wish to be not seen to help the British.

As I said I hope these men get some type of recognition and an unreserved apology from our state on an individual basis to those who were wronged.

By the way lots of other countries remained neutral during WWII. The USA only joined the Allies after Pearl Harbour and out of complete self-interest as they did in WWI. Why the Unionists' pre-occupation with a tiny country like Ireland being neutral is beyond me.

Hopefully the peoples of these Islands can forget about past wars and get on with the job of seeing what we have in common and fighting the MerKozy axis.

[Wasp]

Collina as an Ulsterman and a proud British citizen I am very proud of those Irishmen who joined the allies just as I am proud of anyone joining the allies, the only difference being the irish were our closest neighbours and these same people rose above political differences etc. For that they have to be commended.