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Post by Wasp on Dec 7, 2011 17:36:34 GMT
Claims that Irish state created PIRA to eject British from Ulster
When he was first minister of Northern Ireland, David Trimble challenged Taoiseach Bertie Ahern to hold a public inquiry into Irish state collusion in creating and resourcing the Provisional IRA.
“There is reason to believe the Irish government/Fianna Fail made approaches to northern nationalists/IRA to form a northern command and separate from its Marxist attacks on the Irish state,” Mr Trimble said while in office. “PIRA came out of that with standing orders saying there were to be no attacks on the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland government kept its side of the deal for some time.”
He asked Mr Ahern for an inquiry but the Taoiseach refused.
Peter Taylor’s ‘Sparks That Lit the Bonfire’ BBC documentary came to the same conclusions as Mr Trimble in 1993, with leading republicans, Irish intelligence officer Captain James Kelly and Irish politicians speaking at length.
Ed Moloney in his acclaimed book, the secret History of the IRA, says recently released papers show that it was the Irish Cabinet and Department of Justice who decided to create the Provisional IRA, but that Ministers Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney ended up in the dock because they put the policy into action.
His book examines the allegation that Captain Kelly, Blaney and Haughey conspired to split the Official IRA to neutralise the politically radical and increasingly violent Dublin leadership, while creating an instrument in Northern Ireland that could be controlled by Fianna Fail.
“Cabinet papers of the day that have recently been published acquit Haughey of this particular charge; they reveal that this was a policy agreed upon by all Taoiseach Jack Lynch’s ministers in April that year, long before the August riots [in Belfast, 1969]. The papers show that the Department of Justice had recommended a policy of dividing the IRA’s rural conservatives from the urban radical and that the cabinet endorsed this. Even so, the working out of the policy put Haughey and Blaney at the centre of the scheme, almost as if it was their private freelance plan.”
Similar concerns were shared among Bogside republicans in the late 1960s, according to journalist Eamon McCann.
He was invited to a state-run training camp for republican paramilitaries in Donegal in 1969, he said.
“During that period elements of the Dublin government and military intelligence were sussing out things north of the border and were offering to take people across the border to train them with arms,” he told the News Letter. “There was considerable debate in the Bogside that if the offer was accepted it would be compromising. It was said that an offer like that from the Fianna Fail government could not be taken without putting ourselves under their control.”
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Post by leeside on Dec 16, 2011 11:00:20 GMT
Dont really know what to make of this article to be honest but if the Irish Government at the time trained some of those from the CNR community in the use of arms so that they could better defend their communities then i say fair play to them!!
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Post by Wasp on Dec 16, 2011 18:28:28 GMT
defend their communties?? More like attacking anthing British so if its fair play to them then its fair play to say any attack on the republic government or state was justified, any refusal to talks with the republic government etc are also justified.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 16, 2011 19:23:32 GMT
Dont really know what to make of this article to be honest but if the Irish Government at the time trained some of those from the CNR community in the use of arms so that they could better defend their communities then i say fair play to them!! So would the same be said if the British state armed loyalists to protect their communities, their property and land which was coming under constant attack from republicans? |
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Post by leeside on Dec 17, 2011 14:20:44 GMT
defend their communties?? More like attacking anthing British so if its fair play to them then its fair play to say any attack on the republic government or state was justified, any refusal to talks with the republic government etc are also justified. At that time i would have fully endorsed the arming and training of members of the CNR communities in the act of defence against loyalist and state security force attack. The CNR community was very much defenceless. That doesnt mean that i supported the Provos then going on the offensive. |
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Post by leeside on Dec 17, 2011 14:34:44 GMT
Dont really know what to make of this article to be honest but if the Irish Government at the time trained some of those from the CNR community in the use of arms so that they could better defend their communities then i say fair play to them!! So would the same be said if the British state armed loyalists to protect their communities, their property and land which was coming under constant attack from republicans? At the beginning of the troubles, loyalists had the RUC, the UDR and B-Specials protecting them. The CNR had nothing of the sort yet statistics will show that it was the CNR community that was under the most attack. Loyalists didnt 'defend', they killed catholics randomly. Thats not defence. |
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Post by Wasp on Dec 17, 2011 17:16:51 GMT
That is all a bit twisted distortion of what really happened and your leaving out numerous facts and promoting myths and the twisting of the factual truth. Dont forget the reason the army was brought in, nor the countless Protestant and catholic homes that were targeted and destroyed by the 'other' side. Republicans did not defend either if that is your view on things they targeted Protestants randomly.
Again it was republicans who were the main reason for catholics not joining/leaving the security forces, the UDR was about 38% catholic when it first formed. Remember the failed dissident 50s campaign of the ira, those scars still remained and with republicans upping the ante against Protestants and anything British many brave men and women joined the security forces to protect there country from the acts of evil and they served both communities, the many many loyalists arrested and jailed are testament to that.
On the otherhand loyalists attacked catholics just as republicans attacked Protestants and their families and this was something that noside would win, only lose.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 17, 2011 17:23:28 GMT
Also do you think for a second that the arms supplied by the irish gov would have been used only to 'defend' their areas considering what the ira had done previously in the 50s, what they were doing around this time attacking Protestants and anything British and please dont foget the raw sectarian hatred republicans and thier supporters have for my communtieis culture where they attacked men women and children celebrating that culture in completely unprovoked attacks.
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Post by leeside on Dec 17, 2011 18:02:39 GMT
Can you explain what 'myths' i'm promoting, wasp?
Catholic areas and civil rights marches on countless occasions were being attacked by both the state security forces and mobs of loyalists combined. They had every right to arm, organise and defend themselves. I fully agree with that.
You can go on about the 50's IRA campaign and i can bring up partition. It didnt all start with the 50's campaign. The problem was far deeper than that.
Honestly, wasp i think you're a kind of a 'croppy lie down' type of loyalist sometimes.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 17, 2011 19:23:07 GMT
whats a croppy lie down type of loyalist?
The myths you are promoting are the very onesided stories or events you are talking about. What about the thousands of catholics living in many other areas that suffered nothing or very little? Why was these things you talk of confined mainly to republican areas? Why do you only speak of the oneside which is widely inaccurate? The list goes on, you are basing your viewpoints on onesided fantasy which are far from accurate, you are putting any wrong doing by the loyalist community as being the case for all events in catholic areas whilst ignoring the wrongdoings of catholic areas against the Protestant communtiy.
I know plenty of catholics who werent 'attacked' by the security forces as you put it so wander why others were, the same others that also in the vast majority of cases acted violently and used provocative and inflammatory language to add fuel to the flames.
You make out it was the poor catholics and you supported terrorists being armed by the irish gov, the same people who were attacking Protestants on a daily basis, ordinary Protestant families who were just trying to get on with their lives and going by your viewpoints you are justifying the dublin bombings in the reverse of your thinking.
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Post by leeside on Dec 17, 2011 21:01:53 GMT
Its one that thinks catholics should know there place.
Nonsense, the civil rights issue and catholic discrimination was very real. You will come up with excuses for it or try to claim that it didnt exist. That it was all a republican conspiracy. You are in denial like a lot of loyalists are regarding the sectarianism that existed in NI towards catholics. Im not saying that every single catholic suffered this but large sections did. Especially in areas where catholics were densely populated. A sectarianism that is very much endemic in loyalist culture to this day.
You say im living in a 'onesided fantasy', yet the only threads you start on this forum are about how evil Sinn Fein is, IRA atrocities, catholic church child abuse and how 'sectarian' the GAA is. Its as though it consumes every minute of your every day. As though the problem is NI all stems from the CNR side. You seem very bitter and emotional and this clouds your objectivity. You will always make excuses for loyalist violence without condemning it outright. You need to take an objective look at your own side and stop being so defensive about everything orange. And before you say that i need to do the same i want you to understand that i agree with most of what you say regarding Sinn Fein, the IRA and the Catholic church but the fact you dont apply the same rational to you own sides misgivings makes me feel like i need to add some balance.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 18, 2011 11:04:59 GMT
That is a complete lie regarding my views on catholics.
I have never ever said these things did not exist, what I have done is balance the wildly exaggerated events and myths.
What??? That is bullshit, you cant live here and deny sectarianism didnt exist or deny it still does exist but it was not a oneway street as you like to portray. I would say I would have alot more experience in helping catholics who were subjected to sectarianism than most of the nationalist/republican posters that were on here. Obviously you have completely ignored any post or rather choose to ignore any post I have ever made concerning these things.
Many catholics did suffer and many didnt, the areas that did belonged to the 'Brits out' mentality who also had this extreme sectarian outlook and still have to this day. That doesnt mean every catholic who suffered were not innocent because like the Protestant community many were completely innocent. I cant say the same for those in the area who claimed to represent these people and added fuel to the fire and made sure division and hatred continued. With you its a oneway street which is sad, and its a sad reality with many nationalist/republicans who cannot bring themselves to admit there are 2 stories here and 2 sides that suffered.
Being a loyalist I post these things to open debate, to share opinions and to see what we have in common regarding these things, I expect nationalist/republicans to post things from their side of the fence just as you do. What have the majority of your posts been?? Do I complain about what you post or do I reply to them without going down the whataboutery route as much as possible. Come on your bigger than that and in fairness to you, you do continue to debate even though we may disagree.
It doesnt consume me like that and I dont blame all on oneside either, I do however counter the claims made from the CNR side. If you knew me then you would know what you think is wrong. I suppose I hate irish dancing as well?
I am bitter and emotional against sf/ira and their supporters because I have seen and felt what they done and continued to do. Coming out with the excuse that 7yr old kids injured in a no warning bomb should not have been at the ice cream van is a fine example of the type of vermin that they were. You too seem very bitter towards the PUL community and I believe that clouds your thinking.
Again that is a lie, you know I have condemned loyalist violence.
I can understand what you are saying but I want you to understand I only challenge what you and others are saying because it does not tell the whole story, infact its all like a romantic myth of the poor catholics fighting the big bad prods.
Thats fair enough and its something we could open up further. I will give you 2 examples. First the alledged cover up regarding the baptist church in coleraine and the murdering dentist Howell, I have said all the congregation should not attend this church until clear answers and reasons are made by those high up in the church. Regarding the attacks on harryville catholic church in Ballymena I have always condemned that outright, infact I had family memebrs from high kirk church who went down to help catholics clean up their church and to allow them to attend mass, this is all well documented.
I am trying not to get into onesided rants with you or anyone else.
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Post by leeside on Dec 18, 2011 19:28:20 GMT
It sound like that to me sometimes.
Likewise, i feel like i need to put a CNR perspective on alot of events.
The sectarianism im talking about is the sectarianism that existed from the bottom all the way up to those in power in Stormont at the top not just from some working class ghetto.
Wasp, to me its far from a one way street and you insult me by claiming that thats how i see it. Im very aware of the 'brits out' attitude that existed and still exists in certain areas as much as im aware of the 'taigs out' and 'kill all taigs' mentality that existed and still exists. Im very aware of how leaders of both communities whipped up hatred and fear and fuelled generations of hatred.
Can you understand how some members of the CNR community would also be bitter and emotional against the PUL community or the British Government? Im personally not bitter but i do have some issues with PUL culture that maybe we could get into sometime. Re the annual bonfires and the OO.
Not always convincingly to me, Wasp.
I guess i do the same. I feel like loyalists also fail to tell the full story and are in denial about alot of things that happened.
Saw a documentary about the dentist. Could make a decent thriller out of it.
Good to hear you say that about Harryville instead of the excuses i've heard from other loyalists.
Me neither, Wasp.
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Post by Wasp on Dec 18, 2011 22:36:10 GMT
I am sure it does, I am not going to argue with that, but please remember it is easy for anyone to lump a whole pile of things onto someone because of their stance on one single thing if you understand me.
I want to hear the CNR perspective, that way we can all try to learn to understand eachothers feelings but I wont lie down to exaggerated myths. The problem that many suffer from is they only look at oneside and ignore events leading upto certain events to show the whole picture, I am also guilty of that. I do feel that many automatically believe something because of their own personal bigotry no matter how much they try to deny it. If someone told you about the big bad Prods putting catholics out of there homes you would believe it straight away, but if it was the other way round you will research it and try to counter it by the whataboutery, by you I mean not you personally but anyone.
Again you have to look at this sectarianism and all the reasons behind it, that is not excusing it. What I mean is bothsides installed a level of sectarianism and the words of some were twisted by others to promote their own agenda, eg where some were reacting to the words of say republicans and their actions, republicans then twisted these reactions to make it look that it was against all catholics.
Sorry mate, I am not having a go at you here but you are reluctant to see the bigger picture, relucatant to see the PUL suffering and come acroos that you blame the British and the PUL for everything especially at the start of the troubles.
I wont argue with that.
Of course I understand, I also understand that those on the CNR side milked every situation for political gain to create and continue division and hatred. Sadly bothsides have been blinded with their own self right that they ignore the other sides suffering. I also understand that when 2 sides have different political aspirations then divisions are created and can sadly last.
I would honestly like you to talk about that, I am not a member of the Orange Order so I cant explain or answer everything but I would love to try and answer your points and perhaps you could see these things that you have issues with in a different light, even maybe just a few.
Fair enough but I am not sure when, I beleive my stance has been consistant but if you disagree then fair enough.
Bothsides do and it is the innocents as usual that get ignored and sidestepped.
They will make a film out of it.
When muslim extremists protested outside chapels in London last year I was probably the first to condemn it on here. Freedom to worship or not to worship is an absolute must for me.
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Post by leeside on Dec 21, 2011 15:11:42 GMT
Will get into the whole OO and bonfire thing after xmas. Have a busy week.
Happy Christmas, Wasp. Have a good one.
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