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Post by Wasp on Feb 14, 2010 20:31:17 GMT
Where did much of the stevens report's evidence come from?? Would it have been from those who opposed the security forces with much evidence based on hearsay and propaganda. How many prosecutions came from this report??
Agreed, look at many of those from sf/ira ingovernment, just violent criminals and the godfathers of criminals.
I have no love for big lundy but shouldnt the likes of Hume be in the same bracket as paisley for some of the things he said and those he associated with.
But you shouldnt, the vast majority of the security forces put their lives at risk to save others and did so many many times including using their bodies as a shield over a bomb to let people escape. Because any rogue members alledgedly collaborated it is utterly ridiculous to put the whole security force organisations in the same lump.
So do I, one retired police officer I knew was kidnapped just across the border while the gaurds looked on, his autopsy report stated that his injuries included being lowered into a bath of boling water while he endured days of endless torture.
Anyone who provided information that led to ira members being injured and killed deserves a medal. Ordinary catholics is an entirely different story. It would have been totally pointless for any security force member to pass on the details of any innocent catholic to loyalists as they would have had plenty of info on ordinary catholics.
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Post by collina on Feb 14, 2010 20:49:15 GMT
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2955941.stm
Army 'colluded' with loyalist killers Rogue elements within the police and army in Northern Ireland helped loyalist paramilitaries to murder Catholics in the late 1980s, the UK's most senior police officer has said The Metropolitan Police Commissioner's report into collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries also found that military intelligence in Northern Ireland helped to prolong the Troubles. Sir John Stevens said informants and agents "were allowed to operate without effective control and to participate in terrorist crimes". The latest report, called Stevens Three, found that members of the RUC and Army colluded with the largest loyalist paramilitary group, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), to murder Catholics. Its key findings were: Actions or omissions by security forces led to deaths of innocent people Murders of solicitor Pat Finucane and student Adam Lambert could have been prevented. Collusion in both murders of Pat Finucane and Adam Lambert Government minister was compromised in House of Commons Three official inquiries wilfully obstructed and misled
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Post by Wasp on Feb 14, 2010 22:06:32 GMT
And who gave Stevens much of his info??? None other than the false claims of ira loving criminals and their families.
A Protestant civillian was shot in Garvagh, a police patrol turned left at traffic lights seconds before the fatal shooting, if they had turned right it is extremely likely they would have prevented the cowardly attack with their prescence or at least have caught the killers. Now if people had threw in all kinds of allegations about the officers on duty I am absolutely positive the word collusion would have been thrown in with allegations they turned left because they knew the murder would have taken place.
Stevens did not also take into account the very different police tactics in gathering information than that of the mainland as we were faced with a completely different situation. Collina I would like to ask you a question, hypothetically speaking of course.
Lets say loyalists carried out an identical campaign of violence against the people of the irish republic and its security forces. Any security force member that lived in loyalist areas were forced from their homes, had to leave the security forces or were killed so gathering intelligence was highly difficult and dangerous. So undercover guards went into loyalist areas and eventually made themselves known in these areas, sometimes as a guard and sometimes remaining undercover. For those that remained undercover They would know that if found out they would definately be tortured to death rather than killed immediately, those that were known to be guards would also know that since people in the area know them and their name etc that they run an even higher risk not only to themselves but to their family incase they are followed and like many ira victims were attacked in their own home infront of their families. Anyway a man come forward to a guard disgusted and disillusioned with the loyalist campaign and gives valuable information which undoubtedly saves many lives due to arms finds and thwarting attacks etc. Lets say this information leads to 100 attacks being thwarted saving hundreds of lives and hundreds more injuries and this guard is faced with a dilema. He has info about someone going to be shot and where many times before they acted on this info on this occasion it would uncover the indentity of the informant which could lead to him being tortured to death where loyalists would make sure they get every bit of valuable info out of him, AND where you also would know that this informant would no longer be able to save lives.
Would you let things go ahead with the hope that the planned attack is cancelled while you try to do things to put off the attack or would you risk the informants life and that of hundreds of others by blowing his cover???
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Post by Wasp on Feb 14, 2010 22:07:07 GMT
On and Finucanes death was not murder it was poetic justice for an ira loving scumbag.
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Post by collina on Feb 14, 2010 23:09:01 GMT
On and Finucanes death was not murder it was poetic justice for an ira loving scumbag. Wow-wow there WASP. In what court was Mr Finucane convicted? He's no more guilty than those killed in Birmingham, Dublin or Manchester bombings. If we accept as part of a civilised society that a man deserves to be tried by a jury of his peers that we must accept that Finucane was as innocent as Jean McConville and that his murder was as unlawful and cowardly as hers. Your citing of the Finucane murder as being a legitimate killing makes my case for some form of truth commision to be established, so that we can seperate the victim from the criminal.Its peculiar that with no evidence what-so-ever you accuse Finucane but on the other hand when presented with prima-facea evidence gathered by British investigations of loyalist collusion with the armed forces you dismiss it altogether. I hope all the relatives of those murdered in Northern Ireland have the chance to question members of Republican and Loyalist murder gangs. The UDA were the very same bunch of scum-bags as the IRA, the same cowards, the same drug-dealing criminals. You only have to look at their victims to know how similiar they were; children and people bombed going about their lawful business. Kingsmill is no different from Greysteel. Lets find out who did these murders and put them where they belong. |
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Post by Wasp on Feb 15, 2010 21:57:55 GMT
What a massive insult to the real innocent victims of the bombings you mentioned, how many of those victims were from ira supporting background, had family in the ira, supported the ira and were highly likely members of the ira. Many many guilty people have never made it to court because of lack of evidence, or rather evidence that cannot be used in court, or because witnesses were threatened etc. Next you will tell me you believe adams was never in the ira. The fact is that at the very least Finucane was part of a dedicated republican family with many members involved in terrorism. A so called human rights lawyer whos family members were breaking human rights daily, and as well as breaking the most important human right of all, the right to life itself.
Then take Sean O'Callaghan who was the former Chief of Staff of the IRA, he said this about finucane; 'But the truth, whether people like it or not, is that Pat Finucane was an Irish republican and a member of the IRA................. Let me go further. Pat Finucane was firstly an IRA volunteer of some seniority and secondly a solicitor who mostly represented IRA prisoners or the families of IRA volunteers killed by the security forces. I speak from personal knowledge. I first met Pat Finucane in 1980 at a high-level IRA finance meeting in Letterkenny in the Irish Republic. Also present were Gerry Adams, Pat Doherty, Tom Cahill, Gerry Fitzgerald and several other people. The meeting took place in the upstairs room of a pub. Adams and Pat Finucane arrived together in the morning and left at lunchtime.'
Speaks volumes.
Collina I dont want to go down the road of insults etc but that is a highly insulting and downright selfish narrowminded comment. Comparing filth, terrorist supporting filth with a 4ft 10' mother of 10 is unbeleivable.
I never dismissed anything altogether, wouldnt you say some of the above points I made were evidental enough as to what finucane really was?? I am sure the security forces have loads of info on the likes of adams, other republicans and loyalists but not just enough to have them locked up, this is due to a wide range of reasons and some of which I have already mentioned. Take the guards they know much about the criminal gangs in Dublin, who the members are etc but all to often they are powerless to do anything.
They will never be put where they belong, that will never happen no matter how much we desire it, no we do it different up here, we put them into governement including a certain kelly who killed a prison officer during his escape and showed no remorse. How would you feel if G. McCabes killers were now in government along with the dublin and monaghan bombers??
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Post by collina on Feb 16, 2010 11:55:19 GMT
What a massive insult to the real innocent victims of the bombings you mentioned, how many of those victims were from ira supporting background, had family in the ira, supported the ira and were highly likely members of the ira. Many many guilty people have never made it to court because of lack of evidence, or rather evidence that cannot be used in court, or because witnesses were threatened etc. Next you will tell me you believe adams was never in the ira. The fact is that at the very least Finucane was part of a dedicated republican family with many members involved in terrorism. A so called human rights lawyer whos family members were breaking human rights daily, and as well as breaking the most important human right of all, the right to life itself. Then take Sean O'Callaghan who was the former Chief of Staff of the IRA, he said this about finucane; 'But the truth, whether people like it or not, is that Pat Finucane was an Irish republican and a member of the IRA................. Let me go further. Pat Finucane was firstly an IRA volunteer of some seniority and secondly a solicitor who mostly represented IRA prisoners or the families of IRA volunteers killed by the security forces. I speak from personal knowledge. I first met Pat Finucane in 1980 at a high-level IRA finance meeting in Letterkenny in the Irish Republic. Also present were Gerry Adams, Pat Doherty, Tom Cahill, Gerry Fitzgerald and several other people. The meeting took place in the upstairs room of a pub. Adams and Pat Finucane arrived together in the morning and left at lunchtime.' Speaks volumes. Collina I dont want to go down the road of insults etc but that is a highly insulting and downright selfish narrowminded comment. Comparing filth, terrorist supporting filth with a 4ft 10' mother of 10 is unbeleivable. I never dismissed anything altogether, wouldnt you say some of the above points I made were evidental enough as to what finucane really was?? I am sure the security forces have loads of info on the likes of adams, other republicans and loyalists but not just enough to have them locked up, this is due to a wide range of reasons and some of which I have already mentioned. Take the guards they know much about the criminal gangs in Dublin, who the members are etc but all to often they are powerless to do anything. They will never be put where they belong, that will never happen no matter how much we desire it, no we do it different up here, we put them into governement including a certain kelly who killed a prison officer during his escape and showed no remorse. How would you feel if G. McCabes killers were now in government along with the dublin and monaghan bombers?? Wasp, I think you have entirely misread my post. You don't have to like it but Finucane's killing was shear cold-blooded murder. We know that be cause the people who murdered him did not give him a fair trial. By the same token, the killings of Billy Wright, Robert McCartney, and Lord Mountbatton were also murders. It doesn't matter who they were or what they were doing, in a civilised society a man gets dues process before the law to defend himself. I find it peculiar that you accept the word of Sean O'Callaghan (a republican murderer) on the one hand, but when the Stephens inquiry present evidence of collusion, you dismiss it as IRA lies. Thats the purpose of a truth commission to seperate the truth from the lies. To seperate the murderers from the victims. Given that its the cowards in the senior ranks of Sinn Fein and the UDA that are likely to be exposed by this, I really can't see your objection to it. |
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Post by Wasp on Feb 16, 2010 17:10:15 GMT
Collina you know as well as I do that there are plenty of people guilty as hell that are still walking the streets from all walks of life. Look how many witnesses at the murder of R. McCartney including members of the same party as we have in government and how many convictions have there been?? Isnt it ture that the ira offered to shoot one of the accused so they certainly knew who done it nevermind the security forces and many more people.
You really dont know or understand me at all, O'Callaghan is someone that I detest for what he done and what he stood for, yet he turned his back on terror, showed true remorse and regret, put his life in grave danger, turned his back on his family, friends and communtiy and faces certain death by his old comrades. With these facts it is highly likely that he would not risk all for a pack of lies, he has given precise information that to this day has had no or very little denials. Put information from someone like that against those with an absolute agenda, those that have twisted the truth and told lie after lie in their pursuit of demonizing the British, those who have we hate the British running through their veins and you will see is it any wander why people like me take their word with a pinch of salt. Lets not forget these same people supported the butchering of my community and celebrated the death of any security force member. As an alledged human rights lawyer did the likes of finucane call for enquiries into say the murder of J. McConville, or the Enniskillen massacre or the hundreds more cowardly murders and maiming of unarmed innocent people?? Again it speaks volumes about the scumbag.
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Post by Bilk on Feb 16, 2010 22:47:02 GMT
Human rights do not only apply to one group of people as they did with Finucane. He was not only one sided, you needed to be a member of the IRA to get his services. I have no love for people taking the law into their own hands and murdering this guy. But what was Jean McConville's crime? She cradled a dying young soldier and gave him comfort as he passed away. She was a mother and behaved like any mother would. For that henious crime she was made to disappear. Why was Finucane not screaming from the rooftops for her civil rights? He professed, after all, to be a human rights lawyer. Real human rights lawyers fight for the human rights of all in any conflict and take great pains not to choose one side against another. Nor do they choose the less deserving, as in those commiting crimes against humanity, over the more deserving Jean McConville.
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Post by collina on Feb 17, 2010 0:26:15 GMT
Human rights do not only apply to one group of people as they did with Finucane. He was not only one sided, you needed to be a member of the IRA to get his services. I have no love for people taking the law into their own hands and murdering this guy. But what was Jean McConville's crime? She cradled a dying young soldier and gave him comfort as he passed away. She was a mother and behaved like any mother would. For that henious crime she was made to disappear. Why was Finucane not screaming from the rooftops for her civil rights? He professed, after all, to be a human rights lawyer. Real human rights lawyers fight for the human rights of all in any conflict and take great pains not to choose one side against another. Nor do they choose the less deserving, as in those commiting crimes against humanity, over the more deserving Jean McConville. I agree with you here. Indeed why were Sinn Fein not shouting Jean's murder from the roof-tops? It just shows the spineless group of pirates they were. However, human rights must be for all or nobody. What decides criminality is a fair trial in front of ones peers. If the evidence against Finucane was so strong, why isn't he in jail instead of a grave? Murder is murder. I hope the murderers of innocent RUC men, Army and Protestant/Catholic Civilians are made to face their crimes. I believe a good start would be a truth process. Let all the victims have their say. |
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Post by Wasp on Feb 17, 2010 14:26:48 GMT
Collina never mind sf shouting from the roof tops about Jean, they refused outright to condemn her barbaric murder, as did setanta and some others on here. What is even more annoying is that these are the same people (and I am not finger pointing at anyone on here) that complain about police check points, alledged police heavy handedness, wrongfull arrests, house raids etc where they will come out onto the streets in violent protest or support the protestors, yet they cant even bring themselves to condemn the murder of poor Jean.
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Post by collina on Feb 17, 2010 22:48:48 GMT
Collina never mind sf shouting from the roof tops about Jean, they refused outright to condemn her barbaric murder, as did setanta and some others on here. What is even more annoying is that these are the same people (and I am not finger pointing at anyone on here) that complain about police check points, alledged police heavy handedness, wrongfull arrests, house raids etc where they will come out onto the streets in violent protest or support the protestors, yet they cant even bring themselves to condemn the murder of poor Jean. Its for that precise reason that a truth process is needed. There are too many holding high office and high standing in their respective communitys with blood on their hands. Lets findout who did what. |
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Post by Wasp on Feb 18, 2010 21:24:37 GMT
Let's say there was a truth commission, do you think the security forces should be allowed to open and display all the evidence gathered through surveillance? What would be the point of a truth commision if the likes of Adams still denies being a member of the ira, told blatant lies and misleading stories concerning his time in jail where he claimed he sung always look on the brightside of life which wasnt released till after his release, and worse still the blatant lies he has told concerning the rape of his niece by her own father aka gerrys sick brother?? Those are three examples of what he has lied about in the last 6 months nevermind the last 3 decades.
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Post by Bilk on Mar 1, 2010 13:30:10 GMT
I believe there is a need for a truth commision, but I also believe that it will never happen, certainly not in my lifetime.
In South Africa, where such a truth commision actually took place, the war was viewed by all sides to be over and was therefore not only relevant, but a necessary process to cleanse all of the horrrible deeds that were commited in that country. After which they looked forward to strengthening South Africa as a nation within the family of nations of the world.
That is not the case within Northern Ireland. SF have no wish to strengthen Northern Ireland as a country while it remains an integral part of the UK. Therefore their war is not over, only the tactics have changed. Stupid unionist polititions sit around negotiating with white men with forked tongues, believing their lies to be the truth, that they have changed, it's a joke really. Because their former buddies in arms carry on what they laughingly call "the armed struggle" which is nothing more than a murder capaign in reality. Oh I know Gerry and the boys lined up to condem their actions. But you'll forgive me for reaining a sceptic I'm sure. I judge people by their actions, not their words. The actions of republicans in Ireland have never matched their words. After all there have been agreements in the past that were supposed to bring peace (including the one that brought about partition) so why should their actions match their words now? They won't, because their war is not over. Their ultimate aim is still to de-British this island by whatever means.
Truth and reconciliation commisions after any war are only possible when all sides believe the war to be over.
Only when republicans have truly changed, and the war (whether by words,deeds or weapons) is truly over, can this country move forward with any confidence in the future.
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