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Post by Bilk on Feb 5, 2010 14:53:00 GMT
Ok it's happened, the lunatics are totally in charge of the asylum, only in Ireland could this happen. Some of the people who agreed between themselves to have power over the running of the PSNI and the justice system are some of those at the top of these two bodies wanted list. Knowing the DUPers lust to hold on to their lucrative jobs for at least a while longer, it was inevetable they would cave in (as they always do) Oh how the mighty have fallen eh? "Never Never Never" seems a long time in the past. Don't know why SF don't just put forward a proposal for a United Ireland and threaten to collapse the Assembly if the DUPers don't agree. A few weeks locked in Stormont or some other venue (maybe Hillsbourough? it's more comfortable there and in keeping with the new found upper class standing of the DUPers) Working class unionists my fannys aunt. As uk citezens the police force should be under the direction of the uk government, ditto the justice system. This is nothing more than another errosion of the "Britishness" of of this part of the UK. But honestly is anybody surprised? I sure as hell am not.
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Post by Jim on Feb 5, 2010 17:52:57 GMT
Are you normally this bitter Bilk? I would have thought you would like to see progress. I'm not a big fan of our politicians but for now this is the best there is, apparently.
The police force should be under the direction of the assembly and executive we vote representatives into. I dont think 18 politicians in Westminster is a great representation to a Government that cares little about Northern Ireland. Also considering pretty much MP out there has been stealing money (NI politicians surprisingly didnt take too much) I think you'll find Westminster isnt some bastion of fair play and working class equality, its probably even more elitist and upper class than our politicians new found enjoyment of the good life.
Could you please explain to me how transfering policing to the people it is meant to serve an errosion of your national identity? You could be working for the Sinn Fein PR with that line, you should look into that, I hear the pay is nice.
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Post by Bilk on Feb 5, 2010 18:51:29 GMT
Are you normally this bitter Bilk? I would have thought you would like to see progress. I'm not a big fan of our politicians but for now this is the best there is, apparently. The police force should be under the direction of the assembly and executive we vote representatives into. I dont think 18 politicians in Westminster is a great representation to a Government that cares little about Northern Ireland. Also considering pretty much MP out there has been stealing money (NI politicians surprisingly didnt take too much) I think you'll find Westminster isnt some bastion of fair play and working class equality, its probably even more elitist and upper class than our politicians new found enjoyment of the good life. Could you please explain to me how transfering policing to the people it is meant to serve an errosion of your national identity? You could be working for the Sinn Fein PR with that line, you should look into that, I hear the pay is nice. I'm not bitter just resigned to the fact that our polititions are no longer representing the views of the majority, but negotiating on the basis of their own well being. Transferring the operational committments of policing and justice to the very people who for over 30 years were responsible for the murder of those same police officers and judges, is to me a nonsense and an anathima. Nowhere else would it be accepted, only here, where we accept anything as long as we have our own goverment, no matter who makes up that government. ie the police forcre should be under the direction of those who have the minimum required standards of at least being a law abiding citezen themselves. When we have that I will welcome with joy having control over our own internal affairs. Judging by the age of some of the people involved that may not be too long in the future. y problem is the damage they can do to the policing and justice system before that day comes. We elect representatives to the British parliament too btw, the difference is there are people in that parliament to keep the worst excesses of our own lunatic polititions in check. I wasn't talking about the scandal of expenses, I was talking about the selling out of their own country for personal gain. I don't think we could accuse many British polititions of that, or at least when we can they will face criminal charges just as some of them are over that scandal. |
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Post by Bilk on Feb 5, 2010 22:52:59 GMT
P.S. I'm just thinking, maybe Peter thinks if he gets hold of the policing and justice system he could make "Irisgate" go away. Wouldn.t put it past him.  |
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Post by collina on Feb 6, 2010 15:50:25 GMT
I'm not bitter just resigned to the fact that our polititions are no longer representing the views of the majority, but negotiating on the basis of their own well being. Transferring the operational committments of policing and justice to the very people who for over 30 years were responsible for the murder of those same police officers and judges, is to me a nonsense and an anathima. Nowhere else would it be accepted, only here, where we accept anything as long as we have our own goverment, no matter who makes up that government. ie the police forcre should be under the direction of those who have the minimum required standards of at least being a law abiding citezen themselves. When we have that I will welcome with joy having control over our own internal affairs. Judging by the age of some of the people involved that may not be too long in the future. y problem is the damage they can do to the policing and justice system before that day comes. We elect representatives to the British parliament too btw, the difference is there are people in that parliament to keep the worst excesses of our own lunatic polititions in check. I wasn't talking about the scandal of expenses, I was talking about the selling out of their own country for personal gain. I don't think we could accuse many British polititions of that, or at least when we can they will face criminal charges just as some of them are over that scandal. I don't think you're being bitter either. Actually I can fully appreciate your concerns. Nevertheless there is another side to the argument. Nationalists may point to the numerous investigations that proved the British authorities (including the RUC, the Army and various secret agencies) ran loyalist paramilitary groups. Groups which murdered innocent civilians. There were also too many cases of the police fabricating evidence leading to lengthy jail sentences for innocent men and woman. The judge at the Birmingham Six trial told innocent men that he would gladly have hanged them. What sort of justice would that have been? I wouldn't like the IRA to have any hand, act or part in police and justice in my country, so I can understand why Unionists are sickened. Nevertheless, whatever route NI was to take, because of the way the likes of the B Specials were deployed against the Nationalist community, it was inevitable at some stage in the future that there would be an imbalance in policing to the other side. This is it I'm afraid. |
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Post by Bilk on Feb 6, 2010 16:52:00 GMT
I'm not bitter just resigned to the fact that our polititions are no longer representing the views of the majority, but negotiating on the basis of their own well being. Transferring the operational committments of policing and justice to the very people who for over 30 years were responsible for the murder of those same police officers and judges, is to me a nonsense and an anathima. Nowhere else would it be accepted, only here, where we accept anything as long as we have our own goverment, no matter who makes up that government. ie the police forcre should be under the direction of those who have the minimum required standards of at least being a law abiding citezen themselves. When we have that I will welcome with joy having control over our own internal affairs. Judging by the age of some of the people involved that may not be too long in the future. y problem is the damage they can do to the policing and justice system before that day comes. We elect representatives to the British parliament too btw, the difference is there are people in that parliament to keep the worst excesses of our own lunatic polititions in check. I wasn't talking about the scandal of expenses, I was talking about the selling out of their own country for personal gain. I don't think we could accuse many British polititions of that, or at least when we can they will face criminal charges just as some of them are over that scandal. I don't think you're being bitter either. Actually I can fully appreciate your concerns. Nevertheless there is another side to the argument. Nationalists may point to the numerous investigations that proved the British authorities (including the RUC, the Army and various secret agencies) ran loyalist paramilitary groups. Groups which murdered innocent civilians. There were also too many cases of the police fabricating evidence leading to lengthy jail sentences for innocent men and woman. The judge at the Birmingham Six trial told innocent men that he would gladly have hanged them. What sort of justice would that have been? I wouldn't like the IRA to have any hand, act or part in police and justice in my country, so I can understand why Unionists are sickened. Nevertheless, whatever route NI was to take, because of the way the likes of the B Specials were deployed against the Nationalist community, it was inevitable at some stage in the future that there would be an imbalance in policing to the other side. This is it I'm afraid. I'm glad that you at least don't totally disagree with me and whether we agree or not that the British ran a dirty tricks campaign as you imply, to me, is irrelevent. Anything they did, or did not do, took place in the midst of a dirty war, where British citezens, police and soldiers where being murdered day and daily. That war was carried to them by the very people who have now been given charge of policing and justice. That is not an excuse for the British but they are no different than any other country in that respect. Take for instance Americans who refuse even to put their terrorists on trial for fear that some stupid judge might release them on a technicality to perpetuate their terrorist campaign, as many IRA men and women were. There are always miscarriges of justice in every country in the world, what makes anyone think that the British system should be above that? Judging by the number of arrests that were taking place of both loyalist and republican terrorists on a daily basis, it's surprising there were not more miscarriages of justice. The justice system of the time was hampered to a great degree by the fact that there were few witnesses who were prepared to testify for fear of being murdered themselves. I would have the same worries about policing and justice issues if the representatives of loyalist paramilitaries were being handed the reins as I do now. It is not an issue for taking sides, it is about as I said the lunatics being put in charge of the asylum. |
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Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2010 17:14:03 GMT
Are you normally this bitter Bilk? I would have thought you would like to see progress. I'm not a big fan of our politicians but for now this is the best there is, apparently. The police force should be under the direction of the assembly and executive we vote representatives into. I dont think 18 politicians in Westminster is a great representation to a Government that cares little about Northern Ireland. Also considering pretty much MP out there has been stealing money (NI politicians surprisingly didnt take too much) I think you'll find Westminster isnt some bastion of fair play and working class equality, its probably even more elitist and upper class than our politicians new found enjoyment of the good life. Could you please explain to me how transfering policing to the people it is meant to serve an errosion of your national identity? You could be working for the Sinn Fein PR with that line, you should look into that, I hear the pay is nice. I'm not bitter just resigned to the fact that our polititions are no longer representing the views of the majority, but negotiating on the basis of their own well being. Transferring the operational committments of policing and justice to the very people who for over 30 years were responsible for the murder of those same police officers and judges, is to me a nonsense and an anathima. Nowhere else would it be accepted, only here, where we accept anything as long as we have our own goverment, no matter who makes up that government. ie the police forcre should be under the direction of those who have the minimum required standards of at least being a law abiding citezen themselves. When we have that I will welcome with joy having control over our own internal affairs. Judging by the age of some of the people involved that may not be too long in the future. y problem is the damage they can do to the policing and justice system before that day comes. We elect representatives to the British parliament too btw, the difference is there are people in that parliament to keep the worst excesses of our own lunatic polititions in check. I wasn't talking about the scandal of expenses, I was talking about the selling out of their own country for personal gain. I don't think we could accuse many British polititions of that, or at least when we can they will face criminal charges just as some of them are over that scandal. What are the views of the majority, Bilk? Northern Ireland has no majority in anything, the only majority is the want for true peace. If you want to talk about majorities, the majority of nationalists and republicans voted for those "murderers", the difference here is these "murderers" or whatever you want to call them have made changes that 30 years ago could never have happened. Simple fact that the times would never have allowed for anything like we have today. If you want a democracy then you have to take what comes with it. Whoever is elected, is elected, no arguments. You can't cherry pick who we and who we dont elect. Northern Ireland is no longer a one party state. I'm aware we elect to Westminster. How good a job have those people did to keep politicians in check, btw? We went to war because of a personal agreement between Blair and Bush when millions took to the streets against it. We lock up anyone on suspicion of terrorism, you can be locked up for taking photographs of streets these days, the law and power is there to do it. We lock people away who have never been tried, nevermind tried fairly. Sounds quite familiar actually. Furthermore you talk about the dirty tricks of the RUC as being part of a dirty war; that works both ways mate. You're quick to point the finger at Republicans in government for what they did 30 years ago but quick to forget that had we of lived and grew up in a normal society it wouldnt have happened. Republicans did not create that monster, they were only part of it. |
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Post by Bilk on Feb 6, 2010 18:53:57 GMT
The majority in my humble opinion are those who voted for anyone other than SF. SF are not even the largest party in the assembly. I don't hear any of the other parties threatening to bring down the assembly unless the unionists, as in the DUP, conformed to SF thinking on the issue, it is not their top priority. Actually I think they couldn't care less to be honest. But again what SF wants SF gets thanks to the lily livered DUP. (Oh and of course the collapse of the assembly and a probable return to murdering people by the oh so democratic SF, "Do you want to go back to the bad old days"? is the war cry, war being the operative word) This was not the mandate the DUP were elected as the largest party to the assembly on.
Northern Ireland is not and never was a one party state. unfortunatley for republicans the SDLP, Alliance, NILP and Independents didn't beliieve, as SF did, that a UI could or should be bought by the blood of the innocents. Because none of them could get a majority of the votes in Northern Ireland is why one party ruled for so long. The unionists had a bigger vote than all the rest put together, that is a democracy.
How good a job are the present polititions doing at Stormont? Nothing is ever decided at Stormont and nothing ever actually gets done. Well nothing positive anyway, the negatives come after never ending rounds of negotiations held under the threat of "Do you want to go back to the bad old days?" Between the DUP and SF, what a way to run a country?
The dirty tricks would never have happened if the dirty war hadn't started so it doesn't work both ways. Every action has a reaction, I thought you at least would understand that much. I was born and reared in a ghetto of two up two down houses and outside lavvies with no hot running water just down the Donegall Road from the falls. I and thousands of unionists suffered the same indignity as the Nationalist/Republican poor did. The difference being that I and my neighbours did not support the murder of innocents to put an end to that indignity. Nor was a United Ireland ever going to cure that problem, the Irish were if anything poorer than we were at the time, that is the crux of the matter. It had nothing to do with the living conditions of the poor or any of the other reasons you use to try to excuse what the IRA and SF did. It was an age old war for a UI they were continuing and yes Loyalists for their sins got involved. And the dirty tricks campaign by the British government was used against them too. They did what all governments do in these situations, they played one off against the other.
Anyway all of the above is irrelevent to the present situation, we don't have the same poverty we had back then. Socalled disident republicans are growing in strength and ability day and daily. What will sway SF is that they are republicans with republican thinking not whether they are law abiding citezens , we all know they aren't. They are fighting for the same thing SF/IRA did, a UI. Again just my opinion, they will be treated with kid gloves by the authorities for they are also of the ilk of these people, the previous 30 years I mentioned are proof of that. These are the same people, only the ones who didn't agree with the leadership of SF. Do you honestly believe that Gerry and Martin don't know who they are? If you do you are a bigger idiot than I took you for. The leadership of SF as in Gerry and the Dep first minister no less, Marty, are doing nothing to stop them now. How they will be dealt with by the police and justice system if by some shear accident they do get their hands on one of them I await with baited breath to see. The credentials and political asperations of the present leadership Of the government does not bode well for the families and friends of the victims of the socalled disidents.
I still maintain the lunatics have been given total control of the asylum, and I'm certain we will live to regret it.
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Post by collina on Feb 6, 2010 20:14:35 GMT
Is it not worth believing that someday soon the likes of Adams will no longer be leaders of SF? That the party will become entirely democratic?
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Post by Wasp on Feb 6, 2010 20:32:50 GMT
Totally disgusted at this, infact I am sickened to the fucking stomach.
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Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2010 20:34:28 GMT
The majority in my humble opinion are those who voted for anyone other than SF. SF are not even the largest party in the assembly. I don't hear any of the other parties threatening to bring down the assembly unless the unionists, as in the DUP, conformed to SF thinking on the issue, it is not their top priority. Actually I think they couldn't care less to be honest. But again what SF wants SF gets thanks to the lily livered DUP. (Oh and of course the collapse of the assembly and a probable return to murdering people by the oh so democratic SF, "Do you want to go back to the bad old days"? is the war cry, war being the operative word) This was not the mandate the DUP were elected as the largest party to the assembly on. Northern Ireland is not and never was a one party state. unfortunatley for republicans the SDLP, Alliance, NILP and Independents didn't beliieve, as SF did, that a UI could or should be bought by the blood of the innocents. Because none of them could get a majority of the votes in Northern Ireland is why one party ruled for so long. The unionists had a bigger vote than all the rest put together, that is a democracy. How good a job are the present polititions doing at Stormont? Nothing is ever decided at Stormont and nothing ever actually gets done. Well nothing positive anyway, the negatives come after never ending rounds of negotiations held under the threat of "Do you want to go back to the bad old days?" Between the DUP and SF, what a way to run a country? The dirty tricks would never have happened if the dirty war hadn't started so it doesn't work both ways. Every action has a reaction, I thought you at least would understand that much. I was born and reared in a ghetto of two up two down houses and outside lavvies with no hot running water just down the Donegall Road from the falls. I and thousands of unionists suffered the same indignity as the Nationalist/Republican poor did. The difference being that I and my neighbours did not support the murder of innocents to put an end to that indignity. Nor was a United Ireland ever going to cure that problem, the Irish were if anything poorer than we were at the time, that is the crux of the matter. It had nothing to do with the living conditions of the poor or any of the other reasons you use to try to excuse what the IRA and SF did. It was an age old war for a UI they were continuing and yes Loyalists for their sins got involved. And the dirty tricks campaign by the British government was used against them too. They did what all governments do in these situations, they played one off against the other. Anyway all of the above is irrelevent to the present situation, we don't have the same poverty we had back then. Socalled disident republicans are growing in strength and ability day and daily. What will sway SF is that they are republicans with republican thinking not whether they are law abiding citezens , we all know they aren't. They are fighting for the same thing SF/IRA did, a UI. Again just my opinion, they will be treated with kid gloves by the authorities for they are also of the ilk of these people, the previous 30 years I mentioned are proof of that. These are the same people, only the ones who didn't agree with the leadership of SF. Do you honestly believe that Gerry and Martin don't know who they are? If you do you are a bigger idiot than I took you for. The leadership of SF as in Gerry and the Dep first minister no less, Marty, are doing nothing to stop them now. How they will be dealt with by the police and justice system if by some shear accident they do get their hands on one of them I await with baited breath to see. The credentials and political asperations of the present leadership Of the government does not bode well for the families and friends of the victims of the socalled disidents. I still maintain the lunatics have been given total control of the asylum, and I'm certain we will live to regret it. More cherry picking then Bilk. People voted for SF, and you cant deny them their right to do so. If you want to talk about majorities, the majority of people voted in agreement with the terms set out in the GFA. They accepted it knowingly that SF would be on the rise, it was always inevitable. What SF wants SF gets? I'm not so sure about that one, I take it you read the Newsletter a lot? The sentence "This was not the mandate the DUP were elected as the largest party to the assembly on." does not make sense in regards to our assembly. It is not a standard parliament where the one party forms the Government, and it never will be again. Last time we had a parliament like that they fucked it for themselves. None of them could get votes because only some people were given the privilege  . Didnt you tell me once before you took part in those civil rights marches, one man one vote and all that? Surely you know what I'm talking about then.. Scandals aside, which are part and parcel of politics, I thikn Stormont is doing a pretty good job on things that is in their power. Lets remember a world wide economic downturn does wonders for people forming negative opinions on politicians. Well Bilk, lets look at who started that dirty war. Contrary to popular unionist belief, those big bad evil Republicans did not. The first bombs were planted by the UVF, the first shootings by the UVF, and the Government couldnt run a piss up in a brewery, along with Republican violence in retaliation streets being burnt out and a shift in goals to unification a few years later, its not surprising a dirty war started now is it? Do you think I believe protestants lived a life of luxury? A United Ireland was never meant to cure that problem. You mistake the formation of the Provos with the IRA we know today. They did not form to unite the country, they formed because the OIRA wouldnt protect nationalist areas from attack. It was years before they started the real campaign, they didnt have the resources to do much before that anyway. All Governments do not treat their own citizens as criminals until proven innocent. Well, unless you lived in fascist Spain or the Soviet Union or something. I do not believe dissidents are growing in strength and ability. Remember these are the same people that were part of the Provos, they already have the ability to pull off bombs, but they dont have the support nor the resources to do it properly, and they wont unless the British Army were to touch down again tomorrow, which isnt going to happen. I know fine rightly Gerry and Martin are two eejets, but they're successful eejets. What exactly can they do to stop dissidents anyway? What do you expect them to do? Dissidents have been intimidating ex-Provos for a good while now, since the PIRA no longer have weapons. The British Government are clueless at stopping dissidents, they dont understand dissidents. So, what do you expect MArtin McGuinness to do? Within the constraints of the law ofcourse. |
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Post by Bilk on Feb 7, 2010 13:23:00 GMT
Cherry picking?  ?? I have criticised everyone in this mess from the DUP right through to the paramilitaries. The worst you can say is that Gerry and Marty are a couple of loveable eejits? Oh we agree on something our assembly is like no one elses, only in Ireland like I said. It is no form of democray that will be found anywhere else in the world and it's there to stop people murdering people, that's the one and only reason it's there. Yes I did tell you that I took part in the NICRA movement, I left when it bacame the civil rights movement for Catholics and nationalists only note the NI had been removed as in Northern Ireland the A was for "association" Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association" a none violent organisation. but republicans cannot associate with anyone unless the only thing on the table is their agenda. "Ourselves Alone" remember. And I don't think I need to explain the red herring of "one man one vote" to you again, but just in case you weren't listening last time. It applied to council elections only and had nout to do with poor wee nationalists not getting a vote. Not that that would stop SF implying it did and saying it so often they themselves came to believe it I think. If I were a businessman in Belfast (and that included the many businessmen and women who attended the massive Chaple at the top of Derivogie Avenue on the Malone Road, full house every Sunday, you couldn't get a car near the place for the poor wee catholics Bentlys and Rollers parked there) Check it out someday it's still there a very old Catholic Chaple. Then again I don't think they counted as Catholics because some of them might just have favoured the union. Anyway if you were a businessman or woman and had a home in one constituency and a business in another you had an interest in who was representing both those constituencies. I still didn't believe it was right that one man or woman should have two votes and yes I fought against it. But it's obvious to me that you have that stuck in your mind for all the wrong reasons as the Shinners meant you and the rest of the outside world to. No lets not bother looking at who started the dirty war because you don't even know where it started. Way back probably in 1690 when Billy crossed the Boyne, but I think it may well have been going on even before that. So don't ask me who fired the first shot I have no idea and neither do you. As I said SF are still carrying on an age old war, much as the Arabs have done for centuries, except we are supposed to be a civilised nation in Ireland. We are not going to play school ground politics, "sorry sir he hit me first" What Gerry and Marty could do is at least point the security forces in the right direction. It would be laughable if they did not know who the disidents were and where they are. At least after the last agreement which resulted in partition Dev removed the threat of the IRA. Because, whether he was totally over the moon about the agreement or not, he stuck by it. Which is why I don't trust Marty and Gerry, they are not wholeheartedly sticking to their side of the agreement the Britishness of this part of the island is suffering death by a thousand cuts and this is just another stroke of the knife. Their side of the agreement was if you remember that "This part of the island would remain British until the people decided otherwise" That's really all they agreed to and they can't even stick to that. |
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Post by collina on Feb 14, 2010 18:21:00 GMT
So what next for Ni now that policing and justice have been fully deveolved? Anyone think there sould be a South African style Truth and Reconciliation Commission ? Should senior politicians such as Sinn Fein and the PUP be made account for their actions at Stormont? Should the British government and secret agencies be made account for helping various murder gands taking the lives of innocent civilians?
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Post by Wasp on Feb 14, 2010 18:56:21 GMT
Collina what proof do you have that the British government helped various murder gangs to kill innocent civiilians and what proof do you have that various agencies done the same?? Now I am not talking about the odd rogue member who leaked info as I am sure out of thousands of security force members there probably was a few rogue members just like in any place of work.
Secondly shouldnt sf/ira etc have been held to account for their actions before taking on government here and having policing devolved?? With adam's still denying he was a member of the ira, lying about his brother and the child abuse etc what is the likelihood that any truth at all will come out of sf/ira mouths??
Lumping all in with the likes of terrorists puts them all as the same, like should we stick the gardai and irish army into it as well?
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Post by collina on Feb 14, 2010 19:58:18 GMT
Collina what proof do you have that the British government helped various murder gangs to kill innocent civiilians and what proof do you have that various agencies done the same?? Now I am not talking about the odd rogue member who leaked info as I am sure out of thousands of security force members there probably was a few rogue members just like in any place of work. Well WASP, there have been investigations that showed that various British State bodies colluded with Loyalist organisations. Read the Stevens report. Innocent Catholics and Protestants were murdered. Secondly shouldnt sf/ira etc have been held to account for their actions before taking on government here and having policing devolved?? With adam's still denying he was a member of the ira, lying about his brother and the child abuse etc what is the likelihood that any truth at all will come out of sf/ira mouths?? That's precisely what I meant WASP. I believe that anyone representing the citizens of NI should be made amenable to questions by victims of violence. If Adams and Co can't answer simple questions about what they were up to during the troubles then the'ye not fit to serve anyone. Same goes for the likes of Paisley who may be innocent of organising or perpetrating violence, but who certainly put excuses in the minds of those who did. Lumping all in with the likes of terrorists puts them all as the same, like should we stick the gardai and irish army into it as well? I do lump them all in together. Anyone who stands by while innocents are murdered belongs with the murderers. I believe various elements of the Guards helped repuclicans by turning a blind eye at the border. They should be found and investigated. Same with the RUC who provided information to loyalists. |
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. Didnt you tell me once before you took part in those civil rights marches, one man one vote and all that? Surely you know what I'm talking about then..
?? I have criticised everyone in this mess from the DUP right through to the paramilitaries. The worst you can say is that Gerry and Marty are a couple of loveable eejits? Oh we agree on something our assembly is like no one elses, only in Ireland like I said. It is no form of democray that will be found anywhere else in the world and it's there to stop people murdering people, that's the one and only reason it's there.