catholic doctrine

[Wasp]

BA you said on another thread 'For me WASP the Catholic Church is PERFECTLY biblical in all it's doctrine'.

Now I have no problem whatsoever with what you or anyone chooses to believe but when it comes to claims that are false concerning the bible then I would like to challenge them. I think we can leave N.I politics out of this completely and debate the bible and doctrine.

So BA could you explain the 'biblical' indulgences to me please?

The Catechism states:

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X. INDULGENCES


1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

[Blue Angel]

Fair enough as a challenge - I think the point about leaving NI politics out of this is a fair one, ultimately the politics of NI/The Republic of Ireland/England or wherever are of scant importance in regards to what you and I are discussing here which is something altogetherm more important.

Firstly,indulgences unfortunately have a deservedly poor reputation due to the corruption pertaining to them in the middle ages which many writers satirised greedy churchmen for - rightly so. In an of themselves though indulgences may be compared to sin offerings wich are a biblical occurence and which were offered up by the Jews. I imagine you may move to the argument that Christ was the perfect and final sin offering as a counterpoint - let me assemble the actual teaching on indulgences which is rather eloquent than myself.

[Wasp]

Here is a bit more on the subject.

The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while performing a good deed, such as fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. The Church based this on the argument that good works earned salvation, so paying money to support good works could do the same. To justify the sale of indulgences, Church leaders argued that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences were something like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation. If you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.

In later years, the sale of indulgences spread to include forgiveness for the sins of people who were already dead. Examine the message in this passage from a sermon by John Tetzel, the monk who sold indulgences in Germany and inspired Martin Luther's protest in 1517.


Don't you hear the voices of your dead parents and other relatives crying out, "Have mercy on us, for we suffer great punishment and pain. From this, you could release us with a few alms . . . We have created you, fed you, cared for you and left you our temporal goods. Why do you treat us so cruelly and leave us to suffer in the flames, when it takes only a little to save us?

BA here the rcc is trying to state they have authority to save people and get them into heaven, not only is this unbiblical it is satanic.

Some more;

1471-1479 of The Catechism of the Catholic Church, gives the following definition:

"An indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance. This temporal punishment exists because every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in a state called Purgatory. Indulgences are obtained through he Church, which opens to us the treasury of merits of Christ and the saints. The remission can be plenary or partial, depending on whether it removes all or only some of the temporal punishment attached to sin. The indulgence can be applied to the person performing the works of devotion, penance, and charity or to a soul in Purgatory."

In November, 1998, Pope John Paul II issued a document called The Mystery of the Incarnation with an appendix explaining how indulgences can be obtained. The Church, it declares, will offer a plenary (full) indulgence during the coming so-called Holy Year (December 24, 1999, to January 6, 2001).

BA if I had little knowledge of religion but I was searching for a church that I could join etc, if I read the nonesense above I would run a mile. How can people fall for this rubbish?

Let the bible speak;

.....ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot ......(I Peter 1:18-19)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8, 10

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;" 1 Corinthians 15:3 (you will clearly see hear that Christ paid for our sins, not unbiblical indulgences)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..." Titus 3:5

Then concernig indulgences for the dead;

(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[Wasp]

Heres some of the Westminster confession of faith;

32:1 The bodies of men, after death, return to dust and see corruption (Gen_3:19; Act_13:36): but their souls (which neither die nor sleep) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them (Ecc_12:7; Luk_23:43). The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies (2Co_5:1, 2Co_5:6, 2Co_5:8; Phi_1:23, with Act_3:21 and Eph_4:10; Heb_12:23): and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day (Luk_16:23, Luk_16:24; Act_1:25; 1Pe_3:19; Jud_1:6, Jud_1:7). Besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

32:2 At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed (1Co_15:51, 1Co_15:52; 1Th_4:17): and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever (Job_19:2, Job_19:27; 1Co_15:42-44).

32:3 The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour; and be made conformable to His own glorious body (Joh_5:28, Joh_5:29; Act_24:15; 1Co_15:42; Phi_3:21).