Mary worship, fact or myth?

[Wasp]

Here is what some say about Mary including the pope.

Pope JP II personal motto, which was embroidered on the side of his robes in Latin is the following: "TOTUS TUUS SUM MARIA", which in English translates to: "MARY, I'M ALL YOURS."

Los Angeles Times News Article.

"By awarding the Virgin a central place in the cathedral's narrative, the archdiocese is keeping faith with a long, if fluctuating, Catholic and Orthodox tradition of devotion to Our Lady, a tradition enjoying a resurgence under Pope John Paul II. (The pope's personal motto, "Totus tuus sum, Maria," or "I am all yours, Mary," reflects his belief that the Virgin intervened to save his life from an assassin's bullet in 1981 so that he could help defeat European communism.)" -LATIMES.com Sept 1, 2002 By REED JOHNSON

Now let's compare the biblical Mary with the catholic mary.

Biblical - Humble and obedient. Calls herself "the handmaid of the Lord."

catholic - The Pope officially gave Mary the title "Queen of Heaven" and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven.

Biblical - Knew she needed a savior: "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour." (Luke 1:47)

catholic - "Immaculate Conception" (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and "All-Holy" (Mary lived a sinless life).

Biblical - No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person.

catholic - Glorious Assumption" (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).

Biblical - Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother.

catholic - Catholics are the adopted children of Mary.

Now this;

4. ...With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.[6] Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. ...

6. ... Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. "Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son."[7]

The congregation of the Holy Office, in the decree Sunt quos amor, of June 26, 1913, praised the custom of calling Mary Coredemptress; and on January 22, 1914, it affixed an indulgence to a prayer to which Mary is called Coredemptress of the human race. The role of Mary in Christ's redeeming sacrifice is developed by Pope Benedict XV (1914-22) in his apostolic letter Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918.

As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.

Source: The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211.

And there is loads more to back what I have said.

[Royalist0007]

Wasp,
Worshipping statues that are supposedly of Mary,but is really the Roman goddess Venus,is idolatry,pure & simple!

It is almost as bad as worshipping the Pope of Rome directly!

Aidan.

[Wasp]

From the Vatican's new Catechism of the Catholic Church:

969 ... "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

[Royalist0007]

Wasp,
The Vatican has become more & more crackpot in the past 20 years.

No wonder why I saw the light & became a Protestant (albeit,a Low Church Anglican).

Aidan.

[Blue Angel]

One of the problems I find with much of the 'Catholics worship Mary' line of thinking is the fact the Mary's virginity etc. was largely believed by many of the Protestant reformers. To borrow from a non-Catholic site:-
Testimony from the Protestant Reformers
Though the Orthodox Church does not follow the teachings of the Protestant Reformers, their views regarding the Theotokos's ever-virginity are a point of commonality with Orthodoxy. Many of the major figures amongst the Protestant fathers in the faith believed in the Theotokos's ever-virginity.

John Calvin:

He says that she [Mary of Cleophas] was the sister of the mother of Jesus, and, in saying so, he adopts the phraseology of the Hebrew language, which includes cousins, and other relatives, under the term 'brothers.' - John Calvin, Commentary of the Gospel According to John, on John 19:25
The word 'brothers', we have formerly mentioned, is employed, agreeably to the Hebrew idiom, to denote any relative whatever; and, accordingly, Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons because Christ's 'brother' are sometimes mentioned. - John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. II, p. 215 (on Matthew 13:55)
[Note: Helvidius was a 5th-century Christian who denied the perpetual virginity of Mary and was rebuked and refuted by Jerome in his treatise, "On the Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary Against Helvidius"]

Huldrych Zwingli:

I give an example: taught by the light of faith the Christ was born of a virgin, we know that it is so, that we have no doubt that those who have been unambiguously in error have tried to make a figure of speech of a real virgin, and we pronounce absurd the things that Helvidius and others have invented about perpetual virginity. - Huldrych Zwingli. "Friendly Exegesis, that is, Exposition of the Matter of the Eucharist to Martin Luther, February 1527," in Selected Writings of Huldrych Zwingli, Volume Two, trans. and ed. by H. Wayne Pipkin, Pickwick Publications, 1984 p.275.
Then the pious mind finds wonderful delights in searching for the reasons why the lamb chose to be born of a perpetual virgin, but in this other case it finds nothing but a hopeless horror. [The other case that Zwingli here refers to is the Real Presence] - Huldrych Zwingli. "Subsidiary Essay on the Eucharist, August 1525," in Selected Writings of Huldrych Zwingli, Volume Two, trans. and ed. by H. Wayne Pipkin, Pickwick Publications, 1984 p.217.
Martin Luther:

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ, but that she conceived Christ through Joseph and had more children after that. - Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew," in Luther's Works, vol. 45, ed. Walther I. Brand, 1962, Muhlenberg Press, p. 199.
The form of expression used by Matthew is the common idiom, as if I were to say, 'Pharaoh believed not Moses, until he was drowned in the Red Sea.' Here it does not follow that Pharaoh believed later, after he had drowned; on the contrary, it means that he never did believe. Similarly when Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her. Again, the Red Sea overwhelmed Pharaoh before he got across. Here too, it does not follow that Pharaoh got across later, after the Red Sea had overwhelmed him, but rather that he did not get across at all. In like manner, when Matthew says, 'She was found to be with child before they came together,' it does not follow that Mary subsequently lay with Joseph, but rather that she did not lie with him. - Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew," in Luther's Works, vol. 45, ed. Walther I. Brand, 1962, Muhlenberg Press, p. 212.
John Wesley:

I believe that he was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin. - John Wesley "Letter to a Roman Catholic"
Protestants who deny the ever-virginity of the Theotokos are breaking even with their own fathers in faith.

[Wasp]

Wesley is not one who I would say is correct on many things. He for one said about the state of perfection. The bible clearly says about Joseph not knowing Mary UNTILL etc etc and we know what that means.

I believe full that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth, of course I do but she did not remain one.

The question of her virginity is not the only issue and it is far from the biggest issue. I have proved beyond doubt the fact of Mary worship where the glory deserved only by our Lord is given unto others.

[Wasp]

BA I always beleived God hates the sin but loves the sinner, well that was until a while back. This belief is not even in the scriptures. We cannot understand the awesome love, grace, mercy, and holiness of God while rejecting His jealousy, anger,wrath, hatred, and justice.


Some of the many verses about God's hatred of evil people are:

Proverbs 6:16 These six [things] the Lord hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness [who] speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Psalms 5:4 For You [are] not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. 5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. 6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals; Fire and brimstone and a burning wind [Shall] [be] the portion of their cup. 7 For the Lord [is] righteous, He loves righteousness; His countenance beholds the upright.

Psalms 45:6 Your throne, O God, [is] forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness.

Leviticus 20:23 `And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.

Hosea 9:15 "All their wickedness [is] in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes [are] rebellious.

Amos 6:8 The Lord God has sworn by Himself, The Lord God of hosts says: "I abhor the pride of Jacob, And hate his palaces; Therefore I will deliver up [the] city And all that is in it.

Malachi 1:2 "I have loved you," says the Lord. "Yet you say, `In what way have You loved us?' [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage.

Malachi 2:16 "For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one's garment with violence," Says the Lord of hosts. "Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously." 17 You have wearied the Lord with your words; Yet you say, "In what way have we wearied [Him]?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil [Is] good in the sight of the Lord, And He delights in them," Or, "Where [is] the God of justice?"

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son [He] [says]: "Your throne, O God, [is] forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

Deuteronomy 16:22 "You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates (idol worship).

James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [you] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [you] double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and [your] joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead [men]'s bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 "and say, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt]. 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Hope you see what I am getting at.

[Wasp]

Derek Carver of Brighton - burnt at Lewes on 22nd July 1555. "Ye think ye can make a God. Ye make a pudding." He said this at his trial in St Mary's Church-Over-the- Water (now Southwark Anglican Cathedral, then used as a consistory court).

From the articles of faith signed by all the 13 (11 men and two women) burnt at the stake at Stratford le Bow, 27th June 1556. This was the largest fire ever lit to consume Protestant Martyrs in the reign of Mary I (Tudor):

4th item: The Mass is not only the profanation of the Lord's Supper, but also a blasphemous idol.

5th item: God is neither spiritually or corporally in the sacrament of the altar and there remaineth no substance in the same, but only the substance of bread and wine.

When questioned about the sacrament of the altar (the Mass) the Ely Martyrs, William Wolsey and Robert Piggot, made the following answer: "The sacrament of the altar was an idol and the natural body and blood of Christ were not present in the said sacrament and to this opinion they said they would stick, believing the same to be no heresy, that they had affirmed but the very truth, whereupon they would stand." They were burnt at Ely, Cambridgeshire on 16th October 1555.

Thomas Watts of Billericay in answering articles brought against him at his trial said, "That he doth believe that Christ's body is in heaven and nowhere else; that he will never believe that Christ's body is in the sacrament." He was burnt at Chelmsford in 1555.

It is clear from these statements that these people died for what they believed. These are typical examples of the resistance to the doctrine of transubstantiation expressed by the Protestant Martyrs and upon this their condemnation and burning was based.

[Blue Angel]

Which was wrong - you think I am going to argue that the burning of people over this issue was justified - think again. You think merely because I identify as Catholic I will contend Catholics have always acted in accordance with the values of Christian Charity - think again there. The failure to live up to the message does not mean the message itself loses value. And not all Protestants teach the bread and wine are only symbolic, some branches of Lutheranism still believe in a real presence in the sacraments.

[Wasp]

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching (assumption of Mary) as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine.

I didn't know truth contradicted truth

“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker [not violent], not greedy of filthy lucre [money]; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (1 Timothy 3:2-7)

Now I state that popery is without support from the word of God and here is an interesting article I came across.

The Romans worship and pay homage to the 'creature' who sits pretending that he is the Creator, Romans 1 v 25, and for this very reason God has given them over to vile affections, and to sexual perversity, Romans 1 v 26-27, hence the systematic child abuse by paedo-priests. They pretend to be the representitives of God upon the earth but the Roman system has murdered and butchered God's Elect for centuries, 'And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus; and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration [astonishment]', Revelation 17 v 6. The voices of God's Martyrs in heaven are crying out for retribution upon the system of Anti-Christ, 'And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell upon the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled', Revelation 6 v 10-11. Sooner or later, one way or another God will avenge the blood of His Elect, 'And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them', Luke 18 v 7, and He will destroy the murderers and persecutors of His people, 'For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy', Revelation 16 v 6. The mass-murderers of God's sheep will get a taste of their own medicine, 'He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; and he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints', Revelation 13 v 10.

[Wasp]

Oct 20, 2009 19:20:45 GMT Blue Angel said:

Which was wrong - you think I am going to argue that the burning of people over this issue was justified - think again. You think merely because I identify as Catholic I will contend Catholics have always acted in accordance with the values of Christian Charity - think again there. The failure to live up to the message does not mean the message itself loses value. And not all Protestants teach the bread and wine are only symbolic, some branches of Lutheranism still believe in a real presence in the sacraments.

I wouldnt like to think you would support the burning of people and I am well aware some Protestants teach a flase gospel, I have already said so many times here.

[Blue Angel]

Can I have a source for that wonderfully hilarious bit of ranting in the article you cite? I worship only one creator, Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, I am what I am, those are all titles used for him by Christians - I certainly do not worship the Pope, you may like to think I do but you are very much mistaken.

[Wasp]

Oct 20, 2009 19:33:08 GMT Blue Angel said:

Can I have a source for that wonderfully hilarious bit of ranting in the article you cite? I worship only one creator, Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, I am what I am, those are all titles used for him by Christians - I certainly do not worship the Pope, you may like to think I do but you are very much mistaken.

I dont believe or think you worship the pope, I do know many catholics bow down to statues of the pope, many believe he is the vicar of Christ etc etc and all that bullshit.

[Blue Angel]

He is the vicar of Christ most certainly but he is only a man just as Peter was (and as the Bible shows us very clearly with regard to Peter)

[Wasp]

Oct 20, 2009 19:44:45 GMT Blue Angel said:

He is the vicar of Christ most certainly but he is only a man just as Peter was (and as the Bible shows us very clearly with regard to Peter)

Not being rude mate but he is no vicar of Christ, he is a vicar of the rcc and all its wrongs, nothing more than that. It is an insult to our Lord to have someone like that being called such a blasphemy.