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Post by Wasp on Apr 27, 2009 15:37:05 GMT
I would like to learn more especially from catholics here on what they believe. Now I dont want a slanging match or anything like it but I am particularly interested in what Earl and Collina said on another post. I know plenty of young people who are devout catholics, by devout I mean they attend mass, confessions and generally beieve what the church teaches. Equally I know many who have rebelled against the catholic church etc.
Perhaps we could dig deeper with no-one getting offended.
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Post by Jim on Apr 27, 2009 15:49:45 GMT
I have no relationship with the catholic church, or any church, apart from being baptised, confirmed and recieving communion when i was young and had no choice (and the free money was a bonus). I only go for funerals and I dont take part in anything, I sit at the very back and stay silent.
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Post by earl on Apr 27, 2009 16:23:18 GMT
I ex-communicated myself a few years ago.
I haven't gone to mass in about 4 or 5 years, not counting funerals (out of respect for the dead and their beliefs).
Don't care about the pope, no matter who he is and especially couldn't care what he has to say about anything as it's always out-dated.
I don't believe in the sacrament of confession, believing it to be a means in days gone by of allowing the local priest to know everything that goes on in his parish and one or two less than reputable priests have probably used it as a form of blackmail and coercion.
I don't believe in Transubstantiation.
I don't believe in saints, especially patron saints.
I think the churches handling of all the paedophilia was horrendous and that those involved in the acts and coverups are as guilty as each other and will have to answer for it some day.
I don't believe in holy artefacts.
The only things I believe in are the teachings of Jesus Christ. I don't have time for the old testament.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 27, 2009 16:46:23 GMT
Thats interesting Earl, I didnt know that. For the record I also go to chapel for funerals but dont take part in the mass. YOU have gone completely against catholic teaching which means according to their doctrines which are still in place you are condemned to hell along with the rest of the heretics.  Seriously though with this thinking have you been challenged say by your local priest or other members of the catholic church?? I get challenged quite often from other Protestants who belong to various denominations, especially the charasmatics. ;D Again this is interesting and what you have said has been echoed by many others. The invisible miracle is a must for catholics, I dont believe it either. I think my views on saints would be obvious. It certainly was and I do think this has caused alot of people to resent the church. Agreed. I have time for both but mainly focus on the new testament which I must add this is something that I have not done for a while, I seem to have lost my way a bit. Thanks for the reply Earl which I found very interesting and after reading it I have come to the conclusion you are a flamin Prod. ;D ;D |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 27, 2009 16:47:23 GMT
I have no relationship with the catholic church, or any church, apart from being baptised, confirmed and recieving communion when i was young and had no choice (and the free money was a bonus). I only go for funerals and I dont take part in anything, I sit at the very back and stay silent. Again like Earls post this is also interesting. Do you have any beliefs at all concerning God/Jesus/the Bible etc?? |
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Post by Jim on Apr 27, 2009 17:32:39 GMT
Sort of. I believe Jesus existed, may have been a man of good wisdom but got completely distorted as a messiah or messenger or whatever they call him.
I see the bible as a highly revised highly contradictory and highly interpreted book tellng fibs.
God? If it does exist it must have some sense of humour. That depends on what interpretation of god you take, too. Theres no more or less proof that Odin and Zeus exist, the same proof lies for the christian and muslim God; none.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 27, 2009 19:27:21 GMT
By the sounds of things Jim you don't believe in God and you don't believe in the biblical account of Jesus which is fair enough as it is your opinion. There is too much in the bible to support it as being the sole authority but then again that isn't why I posted what I did to nick pick any of your answers.
I know one young lad who gave a similar account to what Earl did, he prayed and read the bible so I suggested why doesn't he go to a few different church's to see how he feels. But he felt he would be betraying his family if he joined as he put it a Prod church and that in no way could he ever become one of them. Concerning this I found it rather peculiar, here was a young man who said similar to Earl, had very similar views to Protestantism yet couldn't bring himself to attend a Protestant church because of politics, which is in itself very sad.
Anyway my own beliefs would lean towards what is known as Calvinism which is very very hard to get your head around. I always believed that if you asked God into your heart then that was it you were saved and you were going to heaven along with the belief that God loved us all. My studies changed these beliefs quite a bit but all too often I find it hard to come to terms with.
Believe it or not one of my favourite writers was a Catholic called Erasmus and another favourite is definately Augustus Toplady who wrote Rock of Ages.
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Post by Jim on Apr 27, 2009 20:09:16 GMT
Thats what I dont get about christianity, the concept that we have to be saved; from what exactly?
What are we being saved from? Eternal damnation? I'd love to know if child buggering priests are saved from eternal damnation, since its their doctrine, while people who reject God or scripture are damned, even if they havent commited serious "sins" in their life. Murder, rape, paedophilia, blackmail, theft, etc.
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Post by collina on Apr 27, 2009 20:15:18 GMT
I was raised a Catholic, but my mother in particular was never enthusiastic.
I think the teachings of Jesus (and Gandhi for that matter) are entirely divorced from the purpose of the Roman Catholic Church. Yes the message appears Christian, but its not. These people don't believe that ill-educated Africans are worthy of saving from HIV/AIDS. Bit like the way unbaptized children were so unloved by God, that he reserved a gulag for them called Limbo, lest they offended the all-mighty.
As an Irishman, I find RCC PLC behaviour to be destructive, insidious, and malign to all of the people on this Island. If there were no Vatican, there would be no Ian Paisley and maybe Sunningdale would have worked thirtysix-odd years ago. But Paisley has a point about the Holy See; they do cast themselves
as God on earth. Pity he didn't try to articulate himself more pleasantly, we might have listened.
Sometimes I hope Jesus was (is) the son of God and there's a heaven and redemption for us all. Sometimes I hope Jesus was just a man and maybe we'll get another man/woman like him. Please God, such a man won't be born in Sub-Saharan Africa.
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Post by earl on Apr 28, 2009 9:12:21 GMT
YOU have gone completely against catholic teaching which means according to their doctrines which are still in place you are condemned to hell along with the rest of the heretics. Seriously though with this thinking have you been challenged say by your local priest or other members of the catholic church?? I get challenged quite often from other Protestants who belong to various denominations, especially the charasmatics. ;D I've never seen the local priest in my area in Dublin, even though I live 7 minutes away from the church. I refuse to use the title 'Father' when referring to or talking to a priest. Priests are dying out down here. They are too busy trying to do as many masses, funerals and weddings that they can just to get some cash in. I've never been challenged by a priest over beliefs and know no-one who has. You're welcome WASP. I would say that these days, I would be something of a closet Prod alright! I think though that I'm more of an in-betweener. I believe in the teachings which are common throughout Christianity, but don't buy into any of the quirky unique practices and beliefs of any particular version of Christianity. |
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Post by earl on Apr 28, 2009 9:26:34 GMT
Sort of. I believe Jesus existed, may have been a man of good wisdom but got completely distorted as a messiah or messenger or whatever they call him. I see the bible as a highly revised highly contradictory and highly interpreted book tellng fibs. God? If it does exist it must have some sense of humour. That depends on what interpretation of god you take, too. Theres no more or less proof that Odin and Zeus exist, the same proof lies for the christian and muslim God; none. Sums up how I feel on the subject. I'd go one further with a conspiracy theory. When Jesus stated that he was the son of God, he did not mean it literally. We are all sons and daughters of God. Jesus did not die a virgin, but had a family with Mary Magdeline, who was his most favourite disciple, and not Peter as the RC church would have you believe originally (and who deliberatly smeared Mary Magdeline as a whore). He had planned it with her to take his body before the crucifixion and to state that he had appeared to her afterwards. Once this was done, hysteria, hype, superstition and a real need to be a part of something special takes grip among the disciples, causing tall tales, delusions and embellishments. We will never know the truth. There are so many gospels which didn't make the cut into the semi-final edition which explore different sides to Jesus' life, but were destroyed by Rome because they didn't fit in with their view on how this new religion should be run. P.s. I've never read Dan Brown nor watched a mulleted fat faced Tom Hanks in my life! I swear! |
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Post by Jim on Apr 28, 2009 12:12:01 GMT
I always watch those BBC documentaries about Jesus having a family and relationship with Mary Madgeline, and the old Gnostics who knew about it but were silenced. Interesting stuff especially for an athiest.
Its also a known fact that Paul never knew Jesus, never met him either, but he can be creditted with creating the bible as we know it.
Definitely a conspiracy theory, get the tinfoil hats on earl!
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Post by Wasp on Apr 28, 2009 20:14:38 GMT
Everyone thanks for your replies, real interesting. I dont want to say issues that I have with the vatican on this thread as it would only be seen as Catholic bashing instead of doctrine bashing. I wish I had all the answers for you all which I could explain in detail but I don't.
I do believe all the answers are in the bible and it is man that confuses it not the bible confusing the bible. There are many good writers out there on the bible who explain things more clearly.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 28, 2009 22:04:55 GMT
On an added note a few years ago when I was getting back into my religous readings and thoughts I was introduced to the charasmatic movement which at first seemed great. But when they asked me did I want to be saved, then kept asking it putting pressure on me, asking or rather nearly telling me to do it now it freaked me out. When I stood firm and refused they said I had a vacumm inside me which the devil would fill if I didnt get 'saved' there and then. Now this really pissed me off as it felt like forced conversion and this is something that I cannot get my head round concerning many catholics through the decades who let the church rule them with what I see as at times an iron fist.
If any church I ever attended told me I would go to hell unless I adhered to there practices I would run a mile as I did with the charasmatics. I believe in religious freedom as long as someones freedom does not harm another persons freedom regardless of faith or beliefs. When someone first says dont take my word or our word take the bibles word and learn for yourself then I am only too happy to sit and listen to that person regardless of what church they belong to because I dont feel threatened or forced to listen. Hope you understand what I mean.
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Post by earl on Apr 29, 2009 12:07:08 GMT
The RC Church isn't in the saving business, it's in the scaring business. It's into laying large amounts of guilt on you, for things that you didn't even do! Original sin is just an excuse to get babies baptised ASAP into the church. Scare the parents. Tell them that their child won't make it if they should die without being baptised. I've already highlighted my thoughts on confession.
It tells you that your natural instincts, those built into our DNA to help the human race survive, are wicked and wrong, and that you need the church to advise you on them and to keep them in check. Very clever from a psychological viewpoint.
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Seriously though with this thinking have you been challenged say by your local priest or other members of the catholic church?? I get challenged quite often from other Protestants who belong to various denominations, especially the charasmatics. ;D