The Forum

[Jim]

Nov 2, 2008 7:01:57 GMT Blue Angel said:

While I'm sad to see the site going I'm not actually suprised. Like Bearhunter my own contributions had fallen of markedly over time as entrenched positions had indeed become a problem. Also, I at times got tired of hysterical posts about the Kafflick Church which just tried my patience. There were some pleasant people from both sides here but unfortunately the site had too few members to stay vibrant or alive. It was an interesting experiment nevertheless and occassionally we would hit on a point of commonality. Essentially though it's reinforced my belief that in Ireland there is often a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of the opposing traditions and that BOTH sides play that game. A few here tried to move beyond that occassionally and understand the importance of key historical events or issues in shaping the minds and hearts of each group but often that felt like bashing your head on a brick wall.

If anyone wants to keep in touch with me I will give them my email as we have all known each other for the best part of several years now and it would seem strange not to see familar faces about the place every so often.

I'll be on slugger matey. Well, if i can figure out how to post on a blog properly cuz I thought it was a forum.

[Wasp]

Thank you BH, well in that case I may bring a sleeping bag for you then. lol

[Republic]

I don't know what happened that caused this latest rift. I haven't been around much lately, I've been quite busy. Anyway, it was nice knowing everyone, we had some good arguments! Hope I never got personal with anyone, it was never intended that way.

Best of luck to everyone.

[Wasp]

Best of luck to you republic mate, take care.

[Wasp]

I just hope setanta is a man of his word and posts his email he got from hanley without editing half of it for his own purpose and I hope he does exactly what he demands of others by posting proof even if it is negative to that persons views.

Apart from that which is all I ask, I have no hard feelings for you lot and you never know maybe given time I will see yous outside Buckingham palace trying to get a glimsp of Her Majesty while waving your Union flags.

[Jim]

Should I expect you at the next SF rally then Wasp? ;D

Enjoyed having arguments with you and the rest, hold you in high regard as a person even if I rarely agreed with you.

[earl]

We'll everyone,

I've learned a great deal over the last few years. My perspective on things have certainly changed. I owe something to every unionist I've had the chance to debate with. I especially want to thank Harry and would consider him a true friend.
Unlike others, I don't believe Harry was easily conned, brainwashed and taken in. He is far too intelligent for that. He always spoke his own mind, and always had the courage to do it even if it was against his own community. I believe that he is a genuine human being that had a quality missing from so many on this island, empathy.

I want to thank other unionists for taking the chance to debate with me, but I guess we will always be at odds. I'll probably see some of ye else where, and I hope this recession doesn't hit anyone too hard (as I'd never wish such a thing on anyone).

My email is [e-mail] if anyone wants to keep in touch. Setanta, could you send me on Harry's info (with his permission if you can get it). Bilk, I think I've your email. Carol, I have yours. WASPy, my old adversary, please feel free to email the address above if you want to keep in touch. Maybe we can continue fighting it out over email! I might find a new home on politics.ie and slugger. (What's your handle on slugger Jim?)

This isn't goodbye, it's farewell for now.

[Bilk]

Lads I want it known I hold no hatred for anyone, I had some really good times on the respective sites. I still believe that, in the eyes of republicans/nationalists, unionists are the fall guys for everthing bad that ever happened to nationalists, and my view on that will never change. Even on here we are being blamed for the demise of something we began with great hpoes. But in the end left it in dispair. The reason I stopped posting was that it was becoming another Stormont. We had forgotten the reasons we came together, "to engage" to try to talk through our problems and try to understand the other persons point of view. Increasingly it became a battlefield, to the point where my computer was hacked.
But that is water under the bridge, life is about living and learning, and I have learned a lot about the nationalist/republican mindset, not all of it negative.
As I said in my earlier post, the day we can come to understand that their are two communities in Northern Ireland and truly accept that, not peacemeal, but wholeheartedly. That is the day we will perhaps be able to move forward. That does not mean banning everything because it's offensive, or getting revenge by banning everything on one side, while promoting the things that same side has trouble embracing. In a true "reconsiliation" there should be no winners and no losers. A peace deal thrashed out between enemies should never leave any side feeling like the losers, while the other behaves like they are the winners. And whether nationalists/republicans like it or not, that is the feeling among unionists, that they are the losers. And from my point of view as a unionist, nationalists/republicans give off the air of believing they have the upper hand, and are hell bent on banning everything from my culture I hold dear. Even though the deal has been done, they are going to push on until they have won completely. Even on here, after the initial wonderment at being able to talk to each other as human beings, we reverted to type. Nationalists/republicans began to speak down to unionists like they were little children, like "We have won and you know it".
Aileen was the first to leave, and left with more reason than most. She left because she lost members of her family, and couldn't handle the fact that they died because of something someone did centuries ago. This I fully understand and can empathise with, I am in a similar situation, but I, at least, have had a lot more time to get over my loss. One unionist after another followed, including those who were neither unionist or nationalist. Some tried to come back but quickly left again, because if anything the longer the site went on the worse it was getting. Like everywhere else I have ever been where there is a mixture of political beliefe, there was an extreme reluctance to deal with the issue of victims. It begins in Stormont, and it is reflected on sites like this. I do not see any loyalist paramilitary as a victim, at best they were casualties. Much less do I see the murderer of a boy who would've been my uncle had he survived until I was born as a victim. While this mindset continues, the issue of victims will remain a running sore, and will never be addressed
I have accepted the failings of my community, we had our terrorists, but I see and saw them as terrorists. Their innocent victims I see as victims, and feel for them, and every member of their family and circle of friends, who have to live with the futility of their deaths.

That is all I have to say on these matters to any republican/nationalist, I have tried and had my fingers burned. I accept there are probably nationalists/republicans on here who feel the same about me. I don't regret trying what we tried to do, but I won't be trying again, it is a futile exercise. Perhaps the generation of kids growing up today can make a better fist of it than we did.

Good luck to all here in whatever they decide to do, there are some emails I have taken and will contact those people personally. Bye all ;D

[Bilk]

Nov 3, 2008 15:00:24 GMT @setanta said:

bilk, when this site goes we all lose. There's no winners. I wasn't going to, and I don't think anyone wanted to, carry on unilatrially.
You can't learn from yourself and you can't debate against yourself.
We weren't going to learn anything new the way things are.
So, I'm not crowing about anything or blaming anyone.
The site can't continue. Sin é.

You've made my point in one word of your post Setanta, I didn't come here or any other site to debate "against" anyone, I came to debate "with" people as equals. But I wasn't treated as an equa.l

[Louisiana Lady]

The saddest of moments come when hope dies, and the idea of finding common ground was a hopeful one.
Time changes everything and we move on, but not without having a profound effect by those who have touched our life. I appreciate all the patience and tolerance that has been shown to this outsider who was here to try to learn and understand…….and although I didn’t quite understand it all…….I did learn. I learned that as humans we all have our trials and tribulations. We have all had our tragedies and losses. We have all our moments of elation. We all laugh and cry. But most of all I learned that we have been given the great gift of “choice”. This choice is not what is being done to us or against us or not even what happens to us, but it is what we choose our reaction to be. It isn’t about the environment we are in or the circumstances of our life but what we choose to do with that life at each and every moment.
Thank you for the friendship and kindness. Many of you will always have a special place in my heart. All of you will always be in my memories.

[Bilk]

Nov 3, 2008 17:25:33 GMT Louisiana Lady said:

The saddest of moments come when hope dies, and the idea of finding common ground was a hopeful one.
Time changes everything and we move on, but not without having a profound effect by those who have touched our life. I appreciate all the patience and tolerance that has been shown to this outsider who was here to try to learn and understand…….and although I didn’t quite understand it all…….I did learn. I learned that as humans we all have our trials and tribulations. We have all had our tragedies and losses. We have all our moments of elation. We all laugh and cry. But most of all I learned that we have been given the great gift of “choice”. This choice is not what is being done to us or against us or not even what happens to us, but it is what we choose our reaction to be. It isn’t about the environment we are in or the circumstances of our life but what we choose to do with that life at each and every moment.
Thank you for the friendship and kindness. Many of you will always have a special place in my heart. All of you will always be in my memories.

Thank you LL, as always, a great and a very thought provoking post. Sometimes when people are on the outside looking in, they see much more than the rest of us.

[Shades40]

It's sad to see the forum go, had some good laughs and learned a lot about the other side although when I seen what some people thought of and would like to do to republicans on calton I could only assume that we had failed and with little membership the end was inevitable.
Thumbs up to wasp for standing his ground and delicately giving his opinion ;D you'll all be missed.

[Bilk]

Nov 4, 2008 8:56:42 GMT @setanta said:

Nov 3, 2008 17:09:08 GMT Bilk said:

You've made my point in one word of your post Setanta, I didn't come here or any other site to debate "against" anyone, I came to debate "with" people as equals. But I wasn't treated as an equal.l

William, I said LEARN twice, yet you emphasis the word "against" when I spoke about debating. That's what a debate is!

I took your points of view on board and then I gave mine, ..... or vice versa depending on who posted first
I respect your opinion 100%, but I was never going to agree with you 100%. All I wanted was respect for peoples opinions but I never ever expected to reach 100% agreement on anything.

The marches on Sunday was the perfect example of this and the perfect microcosm to describe the situation in the 6 counties.
Nationalists and Unionists gave their opinions but neither opinion was respected or listened to. Nationalists and Unionists both thought that the only reason for either march was simply to antagonise THEM, to disrespect THEIR Traditions and Community. Neither Nationalists or Unionists considered what the marches MAY mean to each other. Both settled on belligerence.
That's happened here. We can level accusations of inequality at each other but it isn't going to mean anything.
The blame for this site going the way it did lays with Admin. That's mainly me and Harry.

I'll end with this.
Retreating into your comfort zone and becoming more and more insular and protectionist only leads to stagnation and eventually disillusion. History has taught us that. Although THIS site has ended, the spirit this site was set up in continues else-where and I'm going there. I'm not going to retreat on to the relative comfort of Republican.net or sites like it.
I'm still going to engage. I hope to see you there.

Setanta, I was admin too, and I take my part in the responsibility of the failure of the site, we all came up short. I wasn't happy with the opening up of the site to where just about anything was ok. I was never comfortable with it and should have expressed that opinion at the time. But didn't because others seemed happy with it. I don't just tire of republicans mate, I am really tired of some unionists too. We all have our heads stuck in the sand waiting for something to happen that we are hoping for, and not working towards what should happen. My political thinking has shifted a lot over the past years, at the moment I'm leaning towards Independence for Northern Ireland. Rid ourselves of the British government, who have no real interest in this place as long as no one is bombing London. And forget about a UI for the forseeable future, a power sharing goverment, that is sharing power for the good of Northern Ireland without the baggage of the Brits/Irish. We unionists give up our Britishness, clinging to their apron strings like an unwanted child. SF and Nationalists give up their asperations for the forseeable future of a united Ireland. Ireland don't want us either if we are totally honest. Something along those lines is the only way I see a possibility of real peace. Whatever happens after that would be for the next generation. It would of course have to be a ten or fifteen year transition and by agreement. A real agreement, not locking people up in a room somewhere to the point where they are ready to agree to anything just to get out of there, and half of them not knowing what it was they agreed to. Which is basically what the British and Irish governments did to both sides at the last few sets of negotiations.
Anyway, that is my tuppence worth.
Could we get both sides to do it? I don't think the SF we have today would, it's all or nothing for them. Give up their asperations of a UI after centuries, I don't think so. And it would be difficult to get many unionists to give up their Britishness, even though some hate the British almost as much as they hate republicans, for the way they have and are treating us. On their part it is fear, fear that republicans wouldn't stick to the agreemnet, as they didn't stick to the one that formed Northern Ireland and the RoI.

That's my last shot at politics, I think I'll go retire gracefully, put my feet up and take to smoking a pipe, oh, and almost forgot the slippers ;D I loved the William by the way, the last person to call me that was my mother, and it usually meant I was in trouble when she gave me my full title.

[Bilk]

Nov 4, 2008 15:45:21 GMT @setanta said:

Can I recommend some books for your retirement? On the Treaty negociations and what was promised haha

anyhooo is anyone else getting emails from here?
northernireland.gossiping.net/index.php

I did a while back but then they stopped.

[Bilk]

Omg, it's still open too