Green or Orange (Red) Post Boxes?

[An Fear Dubh]

I am unsure where I stand on the actions of Ogra Shinn Fein in painting post boxes green. uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m4z04Osv0y8

Some Sinn Fein members have publicly said that this is a peaceful expression of a political ideal. [Now I paraphrase the rest-] That the painting of post boxes is not criminal damage or an act of vandalism but a peaceful demonstration to highlight the fact that we live in Ireland.

My past experience as a youth leader understands how difficult it is to keep young people within 'acceptable boundaries' and that painting post boxes might be better than a lot of other activities. But having this knowledge does not free me from my other knowledge, that painting on property without the permission of the owner is criminal damage and an act of vandalism.

In the past I opted to make a political stand and broke the law in pursuit of my politics. I still believe that my acts were legitimate in pursuit of my political objectives. I believe Sinn Fein can not condone criminal acts and support the institutions of law and order. They are opposites and one must be condemned if the other is to be supported.

If the painting of post boxes is legitimate in pursuit of a political objective, then where is the line drawn? Is political graffiti not also the same? So painting political slogans on Orange Halls is different how? As Sinn Fein have condemned political graffiti painted on Orange Halls.

For myself the colour of post boxes is irrelevant, the same as red, white and blue kerbstones in many loyalist areas. For me both symbol the same thing - moronic marking of 'turf' - dogs and many other animals do it, and my political expression and what I want our youth to be engaged in is better that this. This for me displays poor leadership. How can I talk to kids on the street and try and show them another way, away from anti-social behavior if my alternative is to give out pots of green paint?

[Wasp]

My past experience as a youth leader understands how difficult it is to keep young people within 'acceptable boundaries' and that painting post boxes might be better than a lot of other activities. But having this knowledge does not free me from my other knowledge, that painting on property without the permission of the owner is criminal damage and an act of vandalism.

AFD we seldom agree but I must say this is most welcomed from you.

I believe Sinn Fein can not condone criminal acts and support the institutions of law and order. They are opposites and one must be condemned if the other is to be supported.

Again well said.

How can I talk to kids on the street and try and show them another way, away from anti-social behavior if my alternative is to give out pots of green paint?

Again well said, you have surprized me by your reaction to be honest.

IMHO wouldn't sinn fein be better encouraging their youth to go out and paint the homes of the elderly or disabled instead of this nonesense.

[An Fear Dubh]

And I could also ask Wasp would Loyalists not be better encouraging their youth to do other things than painting public kerbstones red white and blue and climbing ladders to adhere bunting to lamp posts that stays up until it falls down due to rot.

I know many Orga Shinn Fein they are tireless workers in the areas I live. They are the first to act and are involved in many good things, they try to teach anti drug and anti social ways. They are involved in the suicide group and many other activities.

That line about painting the homes of the elderly and disabled comes from the uninformed media. And is non sensical in that Orga Shinn Fein do do good work, but painting post boxes is not good work and they need to be given leadership that identifies this. It is poor leadership that tries to dress it up as 'peaceful political expression'.

[Wasp]

And I could also ask Wasp would Loyalists not be better encouraging their youth to do other things than painting public kerbstones red white and blue and climbing ladders to adhere bunting to lamp posts that stays up until it falls down due to rot.

I see you have gone on the defensive here because I dared to agree and support what you have said. I am one of those loyalists that is trying to get our youth to actively take part in helping the elderly and the disabled. Big, Big part of my volunteer work.

I know many Orga Shinn Fein they are tireless workers in the areas I live. They are the first to act and are involved in many good things, they try to teach anti drug and anti social ways. They are involved in the suicide group and many other activities.

Again you are getting very defensive, you are forgetting most of my volunteer work is in republican areas.

That line about painting the homes of the elderly and disabled comes from the uninformed media.

No that line came from me not the uninformed media as you put it. I can't understand why you seem not to be able to tolerate a loyalist agreeing with what you said, is it because it is abouyt your own community?? If you had have said the same about my community and I agreed with you I am pretty sure you would go on talking about how we have mutual agreement on this blah blah. Perhaps it shows a level of immaturity on your part to deal with agreement on what you said about certain people from your community from a loyalist.

Not an ounce of acknowledgement from you to the fact I agreed with you and praised you for what you said. IMO this sums up the intolerance and immaturity amongst the republican community.

[An Fear Dubh]

This story about painting the paint boxes green has been doing the rounds from 2005
www.mailonsunday.ie/debate/columnists/article-357700/A-Royal-Mail-postbox-painted-green--final-proof-Provos-won.html
That article is from July 2005.
And the uninformed media have been asking the very banal question that you asked, countless times. In fact I heard it on Radio today (Talk back). Those with a bit of common sense would realize that a political youth wing are active and are not sitting around doing nothing. If they were that way inclined they would not be in Ogra Shinn Fein but standing around street corners.

Look if you had left out that insulting comment from your post, then I would not have reacted, but you could not miss the opportunity to petty point score, as is your usual way.

I just pointed out that if you looked in the mirror at yourself the same as I have done here within the nationalist community. Then you would see Loyalist youths painting public property. You never mentioned them, why?

Do not try to pretend you and I agree, you saw an opportunity to petty point score, and took advantage of the opportunity. There was no balance in your reply. I have no evidence what work you do or where, you can tell me anything you want, so I take all that with a pinch of salt. On this site you are bigoted against Catholicism, against anything of an Irish Nationalist nature so why would I believe in real life you are so different?

I do not know why you are so surprised by my comments, you must not read very many of them. I have always spoken against symbolism. Colours of flags, sounds of tunes are irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I am about working class politics. I have been equally as vocal about statues at Stormont. But perhaps the true point of my argument got lost when the red, white and blue mist came down over you. Maybe now you should go back to those discussions and read the words and see if you agree with me there because my argument is the same as here! But maybe you only agree when it suits - again another trait that you are prone to.

[Shades40]

I don't see where wasp went wrong in his first post TBH.

[Wasp]

Look if you had left out that insulting comment from your post, then I would not have reacted, but you could not miss the opportunity to petty point score, as is your usual way.

Well I must say you certainly have learned the art of how to get offended. If you call me commenting on anti-social behaviour in the republican community even though I have many times condemned those within my community pointscoring then there isn't much hope for us here.

I just pointed out that if you looked in the mirror at yourself the same as I have done here within the nationalist community.

No afd you know fine well the type of reply you posted to me, you are more concerned with the whataboutery than anything else. It was my first reply in the thread ffs.

Then you would see Loyalist youths painting public property. You never mentioned them, why?

Again what was the topic, was this my first reply??? Now are you trying to create new unwritten rules to how we reply in this forum?? So are you going to practice what you preach by mentioning republicans wrongdoings in your first post in a thread concerning the security forves. loyalists or whatever, if not then I will point out your blatant idiotic and immature double standards.

Do not try to pretend you and I agree, you saw an opportunity to petty point score, and took advantage of the opportunity.

Accuse me of what you want, I was actually surprized the fact we agreed on something or rather that I agreed with all that you said. It is you that has the problem with your prehistoric attitude looking at everychance to take issue with a loyalist so you can be offended.

There was no balance in your reply.

As I said this was my first reply and I was replying to what you had said about the topic, now make sure you are going to apply this ame immature logic to yourself and your first reply on anything. Unbelievable.

I have no evidence what work you do or where, you can tell me anything you want, so I take all that with a pinch of salt.

I have no evidence of the work you do or the claim you are an ex terrorist, but I accept that you would be only wasting your time and fooling yourself by making such claims. What you think of me has no affect on me whatsoever, not one bit.

On this site you are bigoted against Catholicism,

Oh so opposing Catholic theology makes me a bigot?? My my you have learned the art of getting offended and playing the moral crusader defending victims. You like to throw the word bigot around at the very mention of anyone disagreeing with Catholic doctrine, so who's the bigot here just in the sameway if the word immigrant is mentioned you like to throw the word racist about. Catch yourself on and grow up.

against anything of an Irish Nationalist nature

So I am against anything of an Irish nationalist nature?? Could you provide me with a full list of Irish nationalist natured things and I will say whether I am against it or not. I could easily say you were part of an organisation that was agaisnt anything concerning my identity and my community, an organisation that killed and maimed thousands within my community yet you gat at me for 'alledgedly' being against anything of an Irish nationalist nature.

so why would I believe in real life you are so different?

Only you can decide whether or not you believe and I certainly wouldn't be begging and spending my time constantly trying to convince someone as samll minded as you. Tell me if you were an ambulance man would you discriminate in who you help because of your political views, would you discriminate against people whom you were talking to about drugs etc because of your political views??? Just shows how sectarian, bigoted and small minded you really are.

I do not know why you are so surprised by my comments,

I was surprized at your depth of condemnation from what was quite an intelligent lengthy post and coming from a republican makes it all the more surprizing. By that I mean the level of your complaint within the topic. Is that really such a big deal??

But perhaps the true point of my argument got lost when the red, white and blue mist came down over you.

I think that big how to get offended chip on your shoulder came down over you. You posted a fair post and you were critical of sinn fein, I responded to what you said in my first post, simple as that but you took the typical how to be offended attitude.

Maybe now you should go back to those discussions and read the words and see if you agree with me there because my argument is the same as here! But maybe you only agree when it suits - again another trait that you are prone to.

Now you go back and read your opening posts to do with anything British or to do with loyalists, when you apply the same logic you demand of me in my first post I will take note.

[Wasp]

Oct 8, 2008 23:22:12 GMT Shades40 said:

I don't see where wasp went wrong in his first post TBH.

I went wrong because I am a loyalist shades. Thanks BTW for your comment.

[Blue Angel]

I'm kind of bemused myself, it's not like I always agree with WASP on many an issue but I won't disagree with him just for the sake of disagreeing as painting post boxes green is farcial - it's the sort of thing you'd expect to find in a story by someone satirising aspects of the troubles.

[Wasp]

Oct 9, 2008 21:36:20 GMT Blue Angel said:

I'm kind of bemused myself, it's not like I always agree with WASP on many an issue but I won't disagree with him just for the sake of disagreeing as painting post boxes green is farcial - it's the sort of thing you'd expect to find in a story by someone satirising aspects of the troubles.

I don't believe it (victor meldrew) 2 republicans agreeing with me. ;D ;D ;D

Cheers BA.

[Blue Angel]

It seems foolish to disagree merely for the sake of it - If I do disagree I will say so as I have just done on another thread but this is idiotic behaviour on the part of Oghra Sinn Fein - it's to an extent excusable as these are youngsters and a rap on the knuckles a la a fine or a bit of community service for those caught doing it would be more than enough. But it is hardly 'striking a blow for Ireland' - it smacks of the old tv show Citizen Smith.

[earl]

WE were doing so well lads!

AFD, One thing that I've discovered is that if we want to move forward, sometimes you have to let some things slide and not automatically assume it's a dig. Thick skin is required as we try and find out how to appropriately address some issues. I'm speaking from experience here because I have a very short temper and thin skin. I would jump on every and any unionist comment which I deemed incorrect or offensive. It got me nowhere. Now I'm not saying that we allow ourselves to be taken advantage of, merely that there is a degree of understanding that sometimes we might hear things we don't like, be they true or false and depending on the severity, we should let some things slide.

Back to the subject. I'm in agreement with you both on this one. It's hard to draw the line if this is acceptable. It is not too far a jump to vandalising orange halls.

[Jim]

Ill be honest I dont know what AFD is being so defensive about I think he jumped the gun a bit too quickly, mate, why?

[An Fear Dubh]

I try to always analyze myself and my Republican community first, when looking to keep advancing Republican objectives. I am confident in our ability to take bold steps forward. I also examine the effects some strategies have to see if they are moving us forward or if the message intended is one that is being received. And if it is not then I voice my concern.

In the north we have seen Unionist political domination. And the desire of unionism/loyalism to display its dominance over nationalism. This has manifested itself in many way. Gerrymandering to ensure political control, and with this political control, it has allowed symbols of unionism to be displayed and conferring on it the legitimacy of state/council approval. Using the guise of majority rule to place unionist symbols in great proliferation. There has been no consideration on the part of unionism towards the large minority of nationalists and no attempt to incorporate symbols of Irish nationalism within the state. Nationalist symbols have been denied and made illegal.

So we have statues that are of unionist background or British military or royalist. We have public buildings and streets named in the same way. Then come the marching season Orange Arches and regalia are and were 'officially' erected. A lot of them are never taken down but left to the elements. As the 'Troubles' developed and the areas divided politically we had red white and blue kerbstones, bunting and Union jack, other loyalist flags. And in a mirror image of this we saw green white and orange kerbstones, and Tricolor flags. To their credit many nationalist areas no longer paint kerbstones and the flying of flags is also diminishing.

After the establishment of Stormont, some nationalist politicians highlighted the fact that unionist symbols abound and that given the new acceptance (grudgingly) of nationalism, that perhaps now was a time to erect a few symbols of nationalism. Or maybe just at the home of government in the north (Stormont). So that the image displayed to the community and the international community was of both unionism and nationalism.

We even tried to discuss it here. I wonder what was Wasp's opinion? Did he grudgingly accept that now was a time to change the symbols of unionist domination and to accommodate nationalism into the state we both live in? Or did he strongly object? Did he agree that painting kerbstones red white and blue, erecting orange regalia especially in mixed or at inter-face areas was at the least insensitive. Or did he justify it because nationalists sometimes mirrored this and put up nationalist and republican regalia. I do not remember Wasp agreeing that unionist symbolism of any kind was wrong or over the top. Perhaps I missed it because if he did say it once or twice, I was blinded by all the times he did agree that unionist dominating symbolism is legitimate at the expense of everything else.

My view on symbolism has always been consistent no matter from where it comes. I care little for displays of symbolism, and I follow the words of James Connolly "If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country".

I was disappointed with Ogra Shinn Fein I feel they have made a naive error, that has far reaching negative effects. To some extent I give them the excuse of youth, but Barry McElduff and the other Sinn Fein rep from Newcastle, Co. Down who I heard on the radio, I give them no excuse. And the onus is on them to show good leadership.

Was it a surprise that Wasp agreed with my comments? No of course not!! He takes every opportunity to lay all blame for every aspect of the political situation at the feet of Sinn Fein. And when he sees the opportunity to stir and mix and maybe create discord in the nationalist voice he does not turn up such an opportunity.

Or maybe I have got this wrong? Has Wasp changed his position on unionist symbolism and is he calling for the new administration to correct the imbalance and erect nationalist symbols in numbers that reflect the social make up of society here?

[Wasp]

AFD that is the biggest load of waffle relating to any post that I have ever seen. This topic was about people painting postboxes and your quoting Connolly FFS, WAY WAY over the top. My very first post on it was in a way praising you for being able to condemn this and sinn fein. That was it, nothing else yet you go off on a rant with your glasshouse delicate skin.

Catch yourself on and stop with the I am a victim shite over the heads of a topic about post boxes. If you can't handle a loyalist agreeing with you then that is your problem and it is something for you to deal with, but I don't think you want to deal with it because it is obvious you prefer to look to be offended at every opportunity and to talk about the big bad Unionists standing all over the wee poor nationalists. Get a grip.

The very people that spoke out against your reaction are also republicans and I have argued bigtime with them all, sometimes very heated debates that has resulted in name calling. The fact they see you as over reacting, they see that I done nothing wrong etc does that not tell you something about the idiotic and childish response you relied with when the very people that I have argued the bit out with are saying it.

Not everything revolves round any mistakes or wrongdoings Unionists caused 2 days ago or 200 years ago.

This is about flamin post boxes.