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Post by Harry on Apr 8, 2008 15:33:21 GMT
Good post AFD, very thoughtful with more clarity regarding what changes you see happening if powers are devolved. My problem AFD is/was that some posters seemed to be indicating that a lack of devolution was the cause of all our problems. We all know most of the people who are a blight on our society have very little interest in the goings on of the country. They will behave how they behave regardless of where control is.
I do fully accept your points that having local people in control would be of benefit to the community and i truly am not trying to be awkward but for to long AFD we've witnessed our MPs squabble, bicker and waste chances to make positive change. Unionism has been a massive part of the problem but i wouldn't accept Unionism alone. So i just lack some belief that we would do a better job going on previous showings.
Thats why before i would be totally for immediate devolution i need some sort of confidence boost that we are ready to accept the task at hand.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 8, 2008 15:57:47 GMT
So what are the indicators Earl that you are measuring that tells you the time is not right? Or is it just a gut feeling you personally have and there is no way to tell if your feelings are true or false.
Which does leave you open to the suggestion that Jim previously put forward. That it is unfair for people outside of the region to make such assessments - what Jim should have added is - without some factual basis. You are not putting forward a factual arguement just a personal feeling. And while I do not dismiss emotional feelings they are a very unstable build blocks or reasons to delay democratically agreed deals. You have not put a factual reason as to why the institutions will collapse because policing and justice powers are devolved, just a feeling you have. We can not govern a divided society that we have in the north because of feelings or emotions. We must govern on a basis of equality and justice for everyone equally. To make the changes in justice and policing that effect the north alone you must have control of them. Those who have control at the moment have no vested interest in the north and the speed and desire is lacking. By putting the control in the hands of local people means that they are quicker to react and have a vested interest in making meaningful changes.
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Post by earl on Apr 8, 2008 16:11:34 GMT
The DUP are on shaky ground amongst their base supporters - Fact. The DUP are the largest party in NI -Fact The DUP are the party of choice to represent unionism in the assembly -Fact The DUP are inexperienced at governing - Fact. There is widespread rejection within the Unionist community of the idea of devolving these powers - Fact (haven't heard anything to the contrary) Based on these facts: *The Unionist community are not ready for these powers to be devolved. *The probability of the DUP being able to keep the hardliners in tow is reduced. *The probability of the assembly remaining in a functional state is reduced. *The probability of the assembly falling is increased. *The probability that the DUP's nervous disposition at this present time may make them revert to type as a self defence reaction and thus make the assembly almost unworkable is increased. *The less useful the assembly is, the more likely it is to expire.
No interference from the south eh? You do realise the irony of what you just said. Would you rather we down here just left you all alone up there and turned off from any matters dealing with NI? I offered an opinion, and in a democracy and in an open forum, I'm welcome to that opinion. How is it unfair? How is my opinion either way actually going to affect the actual outcome of this issue, as it's not unfair to offer an opinion.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 8, 2008 16:30:54 GMT
Harry (re reply 89) I think your position is valid. We should know what changes are being proposed, what changes are practable (I am in favour of crucifixtion but that is not going to happen). And I too have little confidence in our politicians regardless from which tradition they have their roots in. I do not know if we would do a better job or if things would go belly up. But we have not been allowed to try yet. I say let us give it a go and would be confident that it will be better than if it is left in the hands of those who have no vested interest here. I can see the benifits of a confidence boost not just to you but to me too. But I think we are too shrewd to fall for some slick or glossy PR blurb. I do not want gimicks and change just because we can. I want change because it is going to have a meaningful benifit to my way of living and it is going to be benifit the whole of society equally. I think it is about trust, unionists and nationalist are still guarded and find it hard to trust each other. Unionists had control of the police either via administration or by make-up and were able to influence how the police responded. And the fear is that by allowing some control to nationalist/republicans and in turn nationalists will try to influnce or control the police that might have effects on the unionist population. While I can understand this fear I do not think it is valid as I think our society has moved forward from that era.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 8, 2008 16:31:57 GMT
Earl I think you need to put that quote back into the context and quote it fully not selectively.
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Post by Jim on Apr 8, 2008 18:26:30 GMT
The DUP are on shaky ground amongst their base supporters - Fact. The DUP are the largest party in NI -Fact The DUP are the party of choice to represent unionism in the assembly -Fact The DUP are inexperienced at governing - Fact. There is widespread rejection within the Unionist community of the idea of devolving these powers - Fact (haven't heard anything to the contrary) Based on these facts: *The Unionist community are not ready for these powers to be devolved. *The probability of the DUP being able to keep the hardliners in tow is reduced. *The probability of the assembly remaining in a functional state is reduced. *The probability of the assembly falling is increased. *The probability that the DUP's nervous disposition at this present time may make them revert to type as a self defence reaction and thus make the assembly almost unworkable is increased. *The less useful the assembly is, the more likely it is to expire. No interference from the south eh? You do realise the irony of what you just said. Would you rather we down here just left you all alone up there and turned off from any matters dealing with NI? I offered an opinion, and in a democracy and in an open forum, I'm welcome to that opinion. How is it unfair? How is my opinion either way actually going to affect the actual outcome of this issue, as it's not unfair to offer an opinion. Lets look at the facts then. These two "facts" are against each other, there is nothing whatsoever to say that support for the DUP is shaky. They lost a by-election which lets be honest is typical of by-elections, people vote on sensationalised issues and not manifestos, and not on a realistic basis. The DUP are no more inexperienced at governing than any other governing party in the North, so thats not a fact, thats an opinion. Experience doesn't mean a whole lot in an unstable situation which is likely to be unstable for generations, possibly forever. And what? There will be rejection of something from any part of the community at any one time, it doesn't matter, we will see what they think come next election and until then, parties should go ahead with agreements made. The Unionist community will never be ready to have Republicans as part of the state forces, so thats irrelevant, the only way to get through that is to impliment it. Many nationalists arent ready yet to accept the police, but the PSNI it was still implimented and changed, while most of us thought that more should have been done. -Every party has hardliner problems. That is not unique to the DUP. -It does not effect the functuality of Stormont (Hardliners aren't given the time of day) -It does not effect how it will fall, that is in the hands of the British state itself to make it fall (like last time). -Making it less workable is probably the only valid point you have brought up, which is overcome by time itself. -The assembly is at its least useful when unable to do anything about the justice and policing powers. The very laws that define the purpose of the state, protection of citizens.
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Post by earl on Apr 8, 2008 18:36:57 GMT
Earl I think you need to put that quote back into the context and quote it fully not selectively. I know it's out of context, but I couldn't help it! Too good an opportunity.
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 13:28:34 GMT
I'm not opposed to the transfer! I've stated that quite clearly. the question was Is it time to devolve Policing Power and I've stated why I think it's not time. none of those reasons were personal opposition. FFS, READ THE FUCKIN' POSTS!! And no, the issue I have raised has not been addressed. Once there is greater confidence out there in the assembly doing the job, then it is addressed.
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 15:05:09 GMT
What an incredible response Setanta. I might of expected it from others, but not you.
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 15:35:01 GMT
Sorry about that. Under a bit o'pressure in work. Another 14-15 hour day is on the cards and all I want to do is beat the living sh!t out of someone. Anyone will do.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 10, 2008 17:25:36 GMT
Earl stand your ground and don't be pressurized.
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Post by Harry on Apr 10, 2008 17:40:46 GMT
I agree with Earl, he's not once said he is against it but just that he thought the time wasn't write and after all thats the question you asked Setanta. I think your really out of order setanta which your attitude to Earl. He is one of our most frequent posters and thats how you treat him. Earl come on in out of the cold, those Republicans will turn on anyone to suit their own ends ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Divide and Conquer lads ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Shit stir the pot ;D ;D ;D
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 18:52:27 GMT
Hee hee. I've met Setanta in the flesh and knocked back a few pints with him, so it's harder to stay angry at the big lug.
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Apr 10, 2008 18:57:31 GMT
does scotland and wales have devolved policing?
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 19:10:55 GMT
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