|
Post by Wasp on Apr 2, 2008 17:12:45 GMT
Who said they would oppose things, they have those who would oppose and support just like the working classes. I think it would be fair to say that many of the burglaries affect the middle class and their businesses as well as armed robberies etc. From that aspect they are affected too on the issue of policing.
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 2, 2008 17:23:16 GMT
The issue of armed robbery and burglaries the police can deal with because there is legislation to allow them. Its the issue of drug dealers, hoods and anti social behaviour that there is no real legislation on, so it doesn't affect them nearly as much as it will affect me or you.
I'm sure there are a lot of middle class people that want to see devolved policing, but remembering there are a lot of hardline new-era big wigs out there that don't because they see it as unneccessary.
|
|
|
Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 3, 2008 8:18:37 GMT
Maybe we could try a different thread for effects of crime on working class people and areas vs the effects on middle class people and areas. Let us try to keep this thread to the poll topic - 'Is it time to devolve Policing powers?'
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on Apr 3, 2008 10:40:18 GMT
Why has Earl swallowed anything? Do you then think bilk has swallowed the republican line so sweetly? Earl is his own man with a mind of his own, he has gave his opinion, as has you and bilk and others. You have no problem with Bilks opinion but have a swipe at Earl because of his. Could this be double standards
|
|
|
Post by earl on Apr 3, 2008 12:38:15 GMT
The poll question was 'Is it time to devolve Policing Power?', and not 'do you think that the policing powers should be devolved'. I don't believe that right now is the time for the reasons mentioned, but believe that this issue needs to be resolved over the next 18 months. Timing is crucial, too fast, and the assembly could go under, too slow, and the reasons Jim has made quite clear will become more of a reality. Have I cleared up any ambiguity in my position?
|
|
|
Post by earl on Apr 4, 2008 15:47:15 GMT
Push it too fast and the assembly will fall and there'll be nothing devolved at all. 18 months isn't a lifetime. One thing the EU does well is introducing change at the rate of a snail. By the time they get around to implementing something, most people are bored to death with it and it's old news by then. This is the type of approach which will have to be adopted for some of the more divisive issues in NI.
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2008 17:20:57 GMT
Take too long and we go back to asking paramilitaries to do the job, creating no go zones again.
What would you prefer? 18 months is a very long time for people living in the worst areas of the city at ransom to scumbags while the police do nothing.
|
|
|
Post by Harry on Apr 4, 2008 17:28:25 GMT
Take too long and we go back to asking paramilitaries to do the job, creating no go zones again. What would you prefer? 18 months is a very long time for people living in the worst areas of the city at ransom to scumbags while the police do nothing. What the hell will change if we devolve the powers. Are all these scumbags going to change?? Not a chance. What exactly aren't the police doing?? I've already asked this?? You are blaming the police and the lack of devolved powers when instead you should be looking at all the scum we have in our society. All the devolution in the world won't change our society.
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2008 17:31:45 GMT
Stormont being able to legislate laws to extent time in prison, better prison regulation, and think up of a local way to deal with hoods and knock it on the head once and for all. That cant happen at the minute, there are maximum sentences judges must follow depending on the crime and I don't think the maximum sentence for joy riding goes over 18 months, if even.
Its not what the police arent doing Harry, its what they cant do.
|
|
|
Post by Harry on Apr 4, 2008 17:46:34 GMT
Stormont being able to legislate laws to extent time in prison, better prison regulation, and think up of a local way to deal with hoods and knock it on the head once and for all. That cant happen at the minute, there are maximum sentences judges must follow depending on the crime and I don't think the maximum sentence for joy riding goes over 18 months, if even. Its not what the police arent doing Harry, its what they cant do. So are the police to blame or is it the laws of the land and the bullshit protection that criminals get??
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2008 18:09:24 GMT
Law of the land.
I'm sure the police would love to get a hold of the wee fucks themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Apr 7, 2008 10:59:53 GMT
Law of the land. I'm sure the police would love to get a hold of the wee fucks themselves. Jim you have changed your tune. Throughout alot of the threads you blamed the police, just check them to see what you said, now you are blaming the law and seem to be supporting the police that it is not their fault???
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 7, 2008 17:26:17 GMT
Law of the land. I'm sure the police would love to get a hold of the wee fucks themselves. Jim you have changed your tune. Throughout alot of the threads you blamed the police, just check them to see what you said, now you are blaming the law and seem to be supporting the police that it is not their fault??? I blamed the police for showing apathy in my personal experience with them, and it really does come down to "we cant do much about it anyway so why are we standing here in your hallway?". So it comes down to the law, that Westminster wont change, because it wants devolution of justice, and will hold us to ransome with it.
|
|
|
Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 8, 2008 13:08:55 GMT
The poll question is: 'Is it time to devolve Policing Powers?'
Earl has put up the argument that the time is not right. But in 18 months it might be the right time. I am unsure what he is using to gauge this time delay, what are the indicators that allow him to make his assessment?
Harry asked what will change if we devolve policing and justice powers. The change will be that local people who are from the community will have control of how justice and police is administered in that community. Harry further adds that the 'scumbags' will not change. That maybe true, but now we have control over how they are dealt with.
Harry did put his finger on a important point. And perhaps some people are confused, about the issues and the solutions. We need to properly look at our society and to correctly identify; the issues, the problems, the causes and look at the present solutions and their effects on the issues, problems and causes. And ask; Are they working? Are they the best solution? Are they long term solutions?
Harry said devolution will not change our society. I think he meant that devolution alone will not change our society. And if I am correct in my interpretation of Harry then he is correct. But to make change we must have control of all/most of the government tools. That will allow us to make such changes. I do not want to sit back and admire the burning car outside my house as gangs of drunk and drugged youths rampage unchecked. Thinking everything is fine we have total devolved government.
Harry is correct to question what we are going to do with these new powers. As there is no point in having a devolved government if there is no change for the better in the lives of local people. But we must take it one step at a time. First powers must be devolved, then we can plan as to what changes we want and to what changes we can actually make. I realize that Harry makes a valid point about planning ahead and in the ideal scheme we would know before powers were devolved what we would change once we got the powers devolved to us. But because of our system things that are agreed prior to being devolved have a habit of disappearing into not being really agreed to once devolution actually happens. Each politically party has their own set of plans and policies. Some are practical, some are unworkable. But none can be implemented as power is jointly shared and no one is going to fully accept the policies of one party. So we might get bits from some and some new approaches too. This is why I tried to steer Harry away from looking too closely at each parties proposals.
But to return to the subject of this thread. Is it time to devolve Policing Powers? Just because there is not a plan laid out as to the changes we intend to make is of little relevance to the devolving of powers. There was no such proviso for Health, Education or other such powers being devolved.
In the news section in the topic 'Our kids and how they behave', I have attempted to begin an examination of society in the north. And to look at the causes and the reasons why they exist. And to look for possible solutions. As that debate is not here.
|
|
|
Post by earl on Apr 8, 2008 15:23:26 GMT
It's not like we're waiting for something new to happen or for a seismic change to occur over that time period. I just feel that in NI, it takes a very long time for anything significant to happen as you will always have to move as fast as (some of) the crowd who are digging in the heels. If the assembly continues to normalise and it's successes are highlighted to the public, then over a certain amount of time, confidence will grow amongst the section who will adapt to change. Now there will be those who will never change, so there's no point in waiting for them. This needs to be done when a majority from both sides can agree on doing it or else the whole thing WILL collapse. That's the whole point in power sharing. When dealing with the DUP, you have to know that they are on shaky ground with their hardline traditional base of voters, so trying to push it through now will cause havoc in the political stratosphere of the Unionist community. We all know what happens in power vacuums. Nothing good. There is more to lose than gain at this moment in time. The settling in period is not finished.
|
|