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Post by Jim on Mar 5, 2008 14:43:23 GMT
The tories want a referendum because the Sun want a referendum. Yet it was the tories that brought us into the EU.
Wankers the lot.
As you know I'm against the referendum and in favour of most of the treaty, and when it comes to the UK people are against the EU because it infringes on their sovereignty, I understand that, but 100% national sovereignty in these times isnt going to happen, even if we left the EU, we will still be dependent on it.
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Post by Harry on Mar 5, 2008 17:34:09 GMT
Ignorance is bliss, so excuse my ramblings if i'm not on the same road ;D ;D Vaguely listening to this on the news previously my thoughts were that the EU referendum was put to France and Holland and they both rejected it so having a referendum in other countries was put on hold. This agreement is very similar to that of the original referendum but only this time they aren't planning on letting us vote. It fcuking stinks to me if thats the case. I also think i heard that ROI will be holding a vote on the issue?? Is that true??
We must be allowed to have on vote on this. I don't want any tosser sat in Brussels dictating to me what i can and can't do. I'm British and as such want to be subject to British rules and regulations not those of pansy Europeans. I want no foreigner having a say on how our country is run. We can fuck it up quite good on our own thanks ;D ;D
I'm not anti eurpoean as it has many benefits but it has to stop somewhere.
Now tell me WTF am i on about ;D ;D
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Post by Jim on Mar 5, 2008 19:07:06 GMT
Whoever controls the money controls Britain, its been that way since after the second world war, I'd rather have some prat in Brussels than some prat in Washington personally. TBH weither either country accepts it or not, the same standards will be set through legislation, it controls everyone regardless of EU membership. Even Norway conforms to EU standards and they arent a member.
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Post by Jim on Mar 6, 2008 18:05:23 GMT
Good. Not like I get to vote for who is in government in britain or ireland anyway. NI gets 18 MPs total, our say in who runs Government is less than some pressure groups. So the EU is no different to me.
New Labour are going to be bringing in some really shit laws soon, some laws I'd rather move country than have to go through. If the EU stops it give me the treaty any day. The only way we could stop them from being implemented in NI would be to get Labour a majority so small that 18 MPs, united, could stop it, meaning SF taking seats and all NI MPs in agreement. That makes me laugh out loud honestly.
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Post by earl on Mar 7, 2008 10:41:24 GMT
Unfortuantely, I know of a few more people with the same attitude as Jim's. This kind of apathy will bury us in a federal EU, where we go from being one of the shining lights of Europe due to our own policies on certain issues, to being the small island stuck geographically and politically on the fringes of Europe with a marginalised voice. I just cannot understand this attitude. It must be the same attitude that the Russians have towards Putin, where they obediently accept servitude over democracy and independence.
I'm pro-EU, but anti federal EU. I don't want to live in a European state. I don't want my voice to be of less weight than a French persons voice, just because of geography and population. I don't want greater integration. I want Ireland to have an equal say with everyone else. There's other ways of moving the EU forward. There isn't just one way.
Too much blood was spilled over the centuries in this country so we could be independent and to have a constitution, a contract between this countries citizens and government. A 'yes' vote is to make less of our constitution. It will be practically worthless. Too many died for this to happen because of apathy or misunderstanding.
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Post by Harry on Mar 7, 2008 15:14:08 GMT
So am i right in thinking myself, Earl and Setanta are singing off the one hymn sheet in regards to this???  |
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Post by Blue Angel on Mar 7, 2008 15:30:47 GMT
um while i am not as oppossed to the EU as Setanata might be I'd be a lot closer to Earl's than Jim's outlook (although I can some points i'd agree with there such as the fact that total national sovreignty is an illussion)so while I wouldn't be singing of the same sheet i'd be at least reading from the same book.
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Post by Harry on Mar 7, 2008 16:04:26 GMT
um while i am not as oppossed to the EU as Setanata might be I'd be a lot closer to Earl's than Jim's outlook (although I can some points i'd agree with there such as the fact that total national sovreignty is an illussion)so while I wouldn't be singing of the same sheet i'd be at least reading from the same book. You'll get massive splinters sat on that fence. Get off it BA ;D |
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Post by Jim on Mar 7, 2008 16:09:14 GMT
The idea that Ireland will somehow matter less is a farse, money speaks for itself these days not population, and the majority of treaties I can think off in the past 50 years (post world war 2 when this whole eu federalism idea started) have been broken or they have been compromised or they have been outright ignored. So why Earl are you taking this as if its the bible, that nothing will be changed and that France and Germany will have the most say because it says so? Besides, France only joined the EU because its financial power is a joke. The only country that would wield some real financial power would be Germany, and if they are influencing laws then lets have it, they're a lot more liberal minded than the British or Irish governments and arent stuck in an ideologicial battleground like in Britain.
Even IF all the EU countries agreed to this treaty and Germany started being the bollocks, leaving the EU wouldn't solve anything. Even IF this treaty isnt ratified and doesnt come into existance, Germany at any point can tell anyone to go fuck itself because Frankfurt is too important. We would have to conform to their standards anyway because every Government in the West are inter-dependent to each other.
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Post by Blue Angel on Mar 7, 2008 16:12:10 GMT
well i can see jims point as well as setantas - but i'd incline more to jim's - i think been in the EU has had more pluses than minuses and I do think to walk of out of it would be pointless. I have a habit of what might be called fence sitting as i can often find myself half agreeing with various views on a subject.
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Post by Jim on Mar 7, 2008 16:18:56 GMT
I think there are a lot more benefits to the EU than people make out to be. Most British are opposed to the EU because they don't want to lose sovereignty but really its an argument hyped up by the Sun and the Daily Hate to make it worse than it is. Britains reputation in Europe is that other European countries dont want to deal with them because they've always got complaints about something.
Bring on the United States of Europe!
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Post by Blue Angel on Mar 7, 2008 16:42:59 GMT
de gaulle made some great comments that letting the british in the EU been a bad mistake as they would want to have everything their way and no other way  |
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Post by earl on Mar 10, 2008 16:54:38 GMT
I'm pro EU, and want Ireland to continue to have an equal say in how it moves forward. A vote 'no' is not a vote against the EU. It's a vote against this future vision of the EU. To me the EU is about co-operation, NOT integration. I am for any policies that help the countries of the EU work closely together in harmony, and against any policies which move the EU towards federalisation.
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