sinn fein/ira and the nazis

[Blue Angel]

Been more serious and just looking at the first world era and the time before it what makes either the UVF or Irish Volunteers better or worse than each other in the way they acquired weapons ? Can't see it meself - the Kaiser's Germany wasn't too loveable -either- look up a wee place called Shark Island - and then again some of the 'good guys' weren't too terribly nice either - look at Belgiums lovely little holocaust out in the Belgian Congo where millions were killed pnly a few years prior to WW1. Or then again hows about the old Czar starving people to death to shut them up - a policy Stalin went on to copy as I mentioned on another thread. I can't see any morally superior power among the big players in WW1 myself.

[Wasp]

bearhunter said:

"Everyone from where?? Planet mars? "

Dogs in the street told me....

So the dogs on the street told you that the uvf didn't steal their guns and the udr just brought them home at the end of their shift. What an insult to a gallant organisation which I might add was over 30% Catholic when it formed.

[bearhunter]

Well how many of that "gallant organisation" were Catholic by the end of it? And how many were also members of Loyalist paramilitary groups?

[Wasp]

Well how many of that "gallant organisation" were Catholic by the end of it?

Due to threats from the ira and various attacks and intimidation Catholics were forced to leave. But some including high ranking members remained and served the country.

And how many were also members of Loyalist paramilitary groups?

Out of thousands probably a small handfull.

[Jim]

blueangel said:

OK I've been meaning to add to this. The point keeps been raised above again and again about the UVF buying their weapons of the Kaiser. Now Earl touched on a point I'd like to by pointing out that so did the IRA of that period (well to be more accurate the Irish Volunteers from whose more militant wing the IRA would in part evolve).

They too paid German arms dealer for their weapons - And it may amuse unionists who are not aware that the two men whose boats were used for it were respectively a man who later become the Queen's surgeon in Ireland - Sir Myles Thomas (not very well know nowadays though) and a man who had fought in the British army in the Boer war and who would go on to win a DSO in the First World War - Erskine Childers*. In fact Childer's book, 'The Riddle of the Sands' - predicated war with Germany years and years before 1914. Childers as most here will know eventually went over to the republican side and was executed in the civil war fighting for the anti-treaty side. I happen to have a lot of respect for Childers and oh yeah although it's not really important he happened to be staunchly Protestant. The Irish Navy's sail training vessel Asgard 2 is named after his yacht Asgard that was used to smuggle arms into Ireland. It used to be in display in Kilmainham Jail and was supposed to be restored but for now is locked away somewhere while the govt. figures out what to do with it.

It's interesting to note though that despite the UVF smuggling weapons in to use in a possibly similar manner that the Volunteers ended up been fired on by British troops and civilians killed as a result...

It was only later on that Roger Casement and Joe Plunkett among others approached the Germans for military aid in other ways and really I don't know considering the crappy old rifles the Germans were sending whether it was worth their while. Even if they hadn't been scuttled when the ship transporting them was challenged they were getting on for 50 years old and how effective they would have been is debatable.

*Incidentally anyone who wants a laugh should read the Dail debates of the day where Arthur Griffiths starts calling Childers an English spy, Implying Countess Markievicz was one also and rattling on about the presence of 'foreigners' in the Dail. I've never been Griffiths biggest fan and this didn't improve my opinion of him.

And lets not forget Roger Casement, when working for the British as a diplomat was instrumental in changing British policy and bringing to light human rights abuses in africa. Hardly something a "fascist" would do, is it, considering fascism had been a movement for quite a while before it got in power in Italy, which should be pointed out, wasn't a racist ideology in the first place.

[Blue Angel]

I notice so far no-one from the unionist side of the fence has responded to my points about there been little difference in how the nationalist or unionist side obtained weapons prior to world war one (except a matter of scale perhaps as the unionist obtained much more due to better finances) I'd like to hear what the point of view is on that.

And yeah Roger Casement, great fascist - as Jim points out exposing ongoing genocide by Belgium and also abuse of Native American peoples and been firmly oppossed to racism or even the idea of paternalism as a way of governing other peoples. Maybe a bit naive and prone to fits of depression and somewhat over-idealistic but a fascist, no not in any sense of the word. You at least could agree something with Russell (although i don't agree) but attempts to retroactively throw the fascist label at the periods before world war 2 come off as contrived.

[Jim]

TBH the fascism label is thrown around too easily. Fascism does not automatically equal racism, Benito Mussolini's fascism was not based on a racial view of history or even a class view of history like Nazism and Communism, it was the wedge between socialism and capitalism, the third way. (Fair enough he did bring in some anti semetic laws towards the end of WW2 but this was due to Hitlers threats) The original fascism of Italy (keeping in mind Mussolini was PM of Italy before Hitler was even organised) was priased by Winston Churchill because of how it delt with corporatism and the trade unions, the big problem in Britian at the time which ended up seeing the Labour party grow. If he had support from his party for it, Winston churchill would have been doing the same thing as Mussolini.

So even if we were to say Sean russell was a "fascist", it doesnt neccesarily mean he was racist, and since the man is dead, we can't call him a fascist or anything else but someone who was willing to talk to the devil to achieve results. When the IRA were fighting each other and spaniards in Spain during the civil war it was never to do with racist ideology, and Germany only supported Franco because he couldnt have a Soviet satellite state hovering near his borders fully armed.

Conclusion to all of this? Its not as black and white as anyone here thinks, thats why a world war happened in the first place.

[earl]

wasp said:

earl said:

okay WASP. A simple yes or no answer here. Do you believe that Loyalism agreed with the apartheid ideology of South Africa when they bought guns from that regime?

I know nothing of loyalist contacts in South Africa or any arms dealings. Nor can I say that not one single loyalist agreed with aparthied ideology because I do not know the minds of those involved and cannot say for sure. At least I am being open and not trying to say I know the minds of the loyalists involved in arms deals the way republicans on here claim to know the minds of ira leaders and members from 60 years ago.

But you can unequivocally say that the IRA of the 40's, before you were born, were all jumping onto the nazi bandwagon to a man, yet you will not judge all loyalists to a man using the same logic. Thank you WASP, you've made my point.

[earl]

jim said:

blueangel said:

OK I've been meaning to add to this. The point keeps been raised above again and again about the UVF buying their weapons of the Kaiser. Now Earl touched on a point I'd like to by pointing out that so did the IRA of that period (well to be more accurate the Irish Volunteers from whose more militant wing the IRA would in part evolve).

They too paid German arms dealer for their weapons - And it may amuse unionists who are not aware that the two men whose boats were used for it were respectively a man who later become the Queen's surgeon in Ireland - Sir Myles Thomas (not very well know nowadays though) and a man who had fought in the British army in the Boer war and who would go on to win a DSO in the First World War - Erskine Childers*. In fact Childer's book, 'The Riddle of the Sands' - predicated war with Germany years and years before 1914. Childers as most here will know eventually went over to the republican side and was executed in the civil war fighting for the anti-treaty side. I happen to have a lot of respect for Childers and oh yeah although it's not really important he happened to be staunchly Protestant. The Irish Navy's sail training vessel Asgard 2 is named after his yacht Asgard that was used to smuggle arms into Ireland. It used to be in display in Kilmainham Jail and was supposed to be restored but for now is locked away somewhere while the govt. figures out what to do with it.

It's interesting to note though that despite the UVF smuggling weapons in to use in a possibly similar manner that the Volunteers ended up been fired on by British troops and civilians killed as a result...

It was only later on that Roger Casement and Joe Plunkett among others approached the Germans for military aid in other ways and really I don't know considering the crappy old rifles the Germans were sending whether it was worth their while. Even if they hadn't been scuttled when the ship transporting them was challenged they were getting on for 50 years old and how effective they would have been is debatable.

*Incidentally anyone who wants a laugh should read the Dail debates of the day where Arthur Griffiths starts calling Childers an English spy, Implying Countess Markievicz was one also and rattling on about the presence of 'foreigners' in the Dail. I've never been Griffiths biggest fan and this didn't improve my opinion of him.

And lets not forget Roger Casement, when working for the British as a diplomat was instrumental in changing British policy and bringing to light human rights abuses in africa. Hardly something a "fascist" would do, is it, considering fascism had been a movement for quite a while before it got in power in Italy, which should be pointed out, wasn't a racist ideology in the first place.

Aye, Casement was involved in the first ever humanitarian mission to highlight abuses in Africa. The only claim loyalists have to Africa is dealing with an apartheid government to get weapons and Adiar starting up an orphanage with a German neo-nazi group to encourage 'the blacks' to stay at home. The Adair thing is only a year old, showing that fascism is as fresh today amoung loyalism as it was at the turn of the last century.

[Wasp]

But you can unequivocally say that the IRA of the 40's, before you were born, were all jumping onto the nazi bandwagon to a man, yet you will not judge all loyalists to a man using the same logic. Thank you WASP, you've made my point.

Errrr what point??? I clearly stated that I knew nothing or rather very very little of SA arms deals. They got weapons there was the height of my knowledge, so please tell me your point.

[Wasp]

The Adair thing is only a year old, showing that fascism is as fresh today amoung loyalism as it was at the turn of the last century.

Now that did make me laugh, infact your most of your post did. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[earl]

wasp said:

But you can unequivocally say that the IRA of the 40's, before you were born, were all jumping onto the nazi bandwagon to a man, yet you will not judge all loyalists to a man using the same logic. Thank you WASP, you've made my point.

Errrr what point??? I clearly stated that I knew nothing or rather very very little of SA arms deals. They got weapons there was the height of my knowledge, so please tell me your point.

My point that you apply two sets of logic towards similar scenarios involving differing groups of people.

[earl]

wasp said:

The Adair thing is only a year old, showing that fascism is as fresh today amoung loyalism as it was at the turn of the last century.

Now that did make me laugh, infact your most of your post did. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm glad someone is enjoying themselves. Personally, I don't find racism funny at all.

[Wasp]

earl said:

wasp said:

Errrr what point??? I clearly stated that I knew nothing or rather very very little of SA arms deals. They got weapons there was the height of my knowledge, so please tell me your point.

My point that you apply two sets of logic towards similar scenarios involving differing groups of people.

Earl how many different countries did the ira bought arms from? Does this mean they agree with the ideology of that country or those they purchase weapons from? No it doesn't but the ira and the nazis are a different kettle of fish altogether.

Do I go on about Gadaffi etc?? No I don't so your comparisons are uncomparable so I am not applying two sets of logic. The proof has been posted here about the ira and the nazis or rather some within the ira and the nazis including the ira's own publication the illegal war journal. There is a major difference and you couln'd compare the ira and Gadaffi's regime the way you could with the nazis.

[Wasp]

I'm glad someone is enjoying themselves. Personally, I don't find racism funny at all.

Oh I wasn't laughing at racism in any shape or form it is absolutely disgusting.