Post by earl on Mar 11, 2008 15:06:50 GMT
Jim
Good point Jim. It would seem that German atrocities in Africa under his reign don't count for much. Then again, the British and French weren't exactly saints either, with concentration camps being created for the first time in the worlds history on that continent by the British during the boer war. All easily forgotten though. Sure it's only Africa.
Wilderness
the Irish Government Earl, so i am surprized that you are getting so defensive over terroists.
Even if the kieser did approve the sale i would much rather deal with the embarresment of dealing with kieser then dealing with hitler or stalin.
I'm not defending the IRA. As I've previously stated, the IRA have enough rope to hang themselves than to go muddying the waters with myths and half-truths. To think that a movement, with it's roots buried in the left at the turn of the last century had some kind of ideological bond with the nazi's is simply absurd and I've been arguing that very point.
You'd rather deal with the kaiser than the nazis? You've completely missed the entire point of the comparison.
The kaiser is not being brought up as a 'look, you've dealt with just as bad'. The whole point of bringing the kaiser into this is to highlight that even though the kaiser was a known would-be hostile enemy of the UK government and it's peoples, the UVF went to Germany to get guns and to use the hostilities to their advantage. They did not share the same ideological values as those in which they done business with. This was proven with their blood on the fields of Europe. Same as the IRA and the nazis. They used a hostile situation against a common foe to get weapons. There was no ideological reasons for it , as proven by the many IRA volunteers into the anti-fascist forces of the Spanish civil war, and their fight against the blueshirts at home. They also proved it by helping and training important members of the Jewish freedom fighters in their battle against the British, thus displaying that the ideology of anti-Semitism was not shared. How many ex-UVF leaders have forests named after them in Israel in their honour? You'll find one forest with the name of an ex IRA member there. And that forest was dedicated by the Jewish community of Ireland, the very people who would have been at the coal-face of any possible anti-semitic IRA activity.
WASP
Of course I know you meant german nazi's that's why I stated that they were directly helping Franco. Who bombed Guernica? The "Condor Legion" of the German Luftwaffe did with the aid of the Italians. The nazi's practiced their Blitzkreig tactics on the battlefields of Spain. So the answer to your original question remains 'yes'. How much about the Spanish civil war do you actually know about WASP?
A fair point, but again, actions speak louder than words. Was this threat ever carried out, or even verbally repeated?
If it was I wouldn't have asked so could you run your stance and views on the question I asked again for me so there is no misunderstanding.
I'm no way a sectarian bigot because I apply the same logic and moral values to both sides of every argument, as shown here countless times. I'm not anti-semitic as I've shown to have a good grasp of the tragic history of the Jews throughout history in Europe, and have stated in the past that I am for a two state solution in the middle-east. I've shown that I don't sympathise with the nazi's clearly throughout my time on these forums and always speak out against fascism. I've stated many, many times that I'm pro EU and pro immigration, proving that I'm not a racist. Was none of this clear to you WASP? You want me to condemn the statue of Russell? If it had of been erected to celebrate some kind of fascist link with the nazi's then I'd quite happily condemn it. But it wasn't. It was erected to commemorate his efforts on 1916 as highlighted by setanta. If the commemorations were held in rememberence to some kind of fascist link with the nazi's I'd have no problems condemning them either, but he is not commemorated for that either. I live only around the corner from this particular statue, so I've gone and had a look. For a fascist memorial, there's an extreme lack of fascist symbols on the thing! Funny that. Naiveté does not equate with collaboration, no matter how hard you close your eyes and click your heels.
"no one could have been as bad as Hitler" and because Hitler is fresh in the memory of most people. They were as bad as each other and if anything Hitler was by far the more popular leader amongst Germans.
Good point Jim. It would seem that German atrocities in Africa under his reign don't count for much. Then again, the British and French weren't exactly saints either, with concentration camps being created for the first time in the worlds history on that continent by the British during the boer war. All easily forgotten though. Sure it's only Africa.
Wilderness
the Irish Government Earl, so i am surprized that you are getting so defensive over terroists.
Even if the kieser did approve the sale i would much rather deal with the embarresment of dealing with kieser then dealing with hitler or stalin.
I'm not defending the IRA. As I've previously stated, the IRA have enough rope to hang themselves than to go muddying the waters with myths and half-truths. To think that a movement, with it's roots buried in the left at the turn of the last century had some kind of ideological bond with the nazi's is simply absurd and I've been arguing that very point.
You'd rather deal with the kaiser than the nazis? You've completely missed the entire point of the comparison.
The kaiser is not being brought up as a 'look, you've dealt with just as bad'. The whole point of bringing the kaiser into this is to highlight that even though the kaiser was a known would-be hostile enemy of the UK government and it's peoples, the UVF went to Germany to get guns and to use the hostilities to their advantage. They did not share the same ideological values as those in which they done business with. This was proven with their blood on the fields of Europe. Same as the IRA and the nazis. They used a hostile situation against a common foe to get weapons. There was no ideological reasons for it , as proven by the many IRA volunteers into the anti-fascist forces of the Spanish civil war, and their fight against the blueshirts at home. They also proved it by helping and training important members of the Jewish freedom fighters in their battle against the British, thus displaying that the ideology of anti-Semitism was not shared. How many ex-UVF leaders have forests named after them in Israel in their honour? You'll find one forest with the name of an ex IRA member there. And that forest was dedicated by the Jewish community of Ireland, the very people who would have been at the coal-face of any possible anti-semitic IRA activity.
WASP
I think you know I meant German nazis, but don't forget as I pointed out some also fought for the facists.
Of course I know you meant german nazi's that's why I stated that they were directly helping Franco. Who bombed Guernica? The "Condor Legion" of the German Luftwaffe did with the aid of the Italians. The nazi's practiced their Blitzkreig tactics on the battlefields of Spain. So the answer to your original question remains 'yes'. How much about the Spanish civil war do you actually know about WASP?
MAYBE Hugh McAteer wouldn't take to kindly to being referred to as that. He was ira chief of staff, ran as a sinn fein candidate in the elections, his son Aiden was a staff officer in the Belfast brigade and was a personnal assistant to Adams. Oh and by the way he and other armed ira men went to the cinema(broadway cinema operation) and read out the proclomation and the threat to target US soldiers. So things have to happen a few times before you can believe them? I am a bit surprized at you finding this hard to believe about the ira.
A fair point, but again, actions speak louder than words. Was this threat ever carried out, or even verbally repeated?
If it was I wouldn't have asked so could you run your stance and views on the question I asked again for me so there is no misunderstanding.
I'm no way a sectarian bigot because I apply the same logic and moral values to both sides of every argument, as shown here countless times. I'm not anti-semitic as I've shown to have a good grasp of the tragic history of the Jews throughout history in Europe, and have stated in the past that I am for a two state solution in the middle-east. I've shown that I don't sympathise with the nazi's clearly throughout my time on these forums and always speak out against fascism. I've stated many, many times that I'm pro EU and pro immigration, proving that I'm not a racist. Was none of this clear to you WASP? You want me to condemn the statue of Russell? If it had of been erected to celebrate some kind of fascist link with the nazi's then I'd quite happily condemn it. But it wasn't. It was erected to commemorate his efforts on 1916 as highlighted by setanta. If the commemorations were held in rememberence to some kind of fascist link with the nazi's I'd have no problems condemning them either, but he is not commemorated for that either. I live only around the corner from this particular statue, so I've gone and had a look. For a fascist memorial, there's an extreme lack of fascist symbols on the thing! Funny that. Naiveté does not equate with collaboration, no matter how hard you close your eyes and click your heels.
The PIRA bought all their weapons over the last 30 years, while the UVF nicked most of theirs from UDR barracks. So by your logic above, the PIRA's campaign was legit, while the UVF were nothing but thieves. Does that sound right to you? Unless you're going to flip your logic around to suit each individual case. Remember, the IRA of the time also went and got weapons from the kaiser. Are you comparing Russell to Hitler? One was a dictator that caused a world war and was responsible for the death of 6m Jews, the other was a leader in the IRA. There's no comparison. Try and keep things in context and with a bit of perspective. 