sinn fein/ira and the nazis

[Wasp]

just becuase someone does not have an agenda connected to unionism does not mean they lack an agenda and personally i am beginning as i've said before when this came up to find this topic odious. The implication that myself who is going to marry someone from a family with a Jewish background in part of her family tree would ever support anti-semitic nonsense either historically or now annoys me.

I never ever said being a republican or being in the ira equates nazism.

Sure If I were in the IRA then I'd take guns of ANYONE offering them and unionists took guns of enemies of Britian themselves - the IRA never claimed to be loyal to Britain at least did it as it was always a force oppossed to Britiain been In Ireland.

The ira had more than just a gun deal with the nazis and you know it. There own war journal praised the actions of the nazis, they were going to attack American troops who landed here and not forgetting they would have welcomed them here with open arms. That does not mean modern republicans equates nazism either. But I certainly would have major issues with any statue and commemoration of a nazi collaborator especially if I was marrying into a family with Jewish connections. Infact I would be very embarrased if I ever supported such commemorations and would distance myself from them.

There seems to be still a distinct confusion as well in the minds of unionist as to the difference between the Irish govt. and IRA of the day. Two frequently they seem to form one homogenous mass in the minds of people commenting on these issues and here is my opinion on Ireland's role in WW2.

Maybe and maybe not.

Ireland was under NO obligation to help Britain in any way, shape or form and to expect it to do so would show a distinct disregard for what were then recent events. Retrospectively you can say the horrors of the third reich meant all states who were run on more enligthened lines should have fought but that is to use 20/20 hindsight.

No it is not using 20/20 hindsight, that is rubbish. The countries knew what the nazis were doing, they knew what hitler had done and was trying to do so any government who did not take some kind of a stand were nothing but cowards. Especially one that gave commiserations on the death of an evil dictator like Hitler. Ireland just sat back and let the rest do the dirty work and the hard work, the ira backed the nazis in helping them and collaborated with them. BUT WE CANNOT forget the many many Irishmen who didn't take their countries stance and went and fought with the allies. All gave some, some gave all, the irish government and the ira gave fuck all.

[Blue Angel]

De Valera also overruled the justice department who wanted to block admitting 150 Jewish refugee children shortly after the wars end. He in fact did that twice to allow Jewish people to enter. I am not Devs biggest fan but it's a point worth noting.

The Irish govt. gave 'fuck all' as you put it as it might have struck them and the people of Ireland that only 18 years before the commencement of World War 2 the island next door was waging war on 'small nations seeking to be free' and people might have had that in mind I think. They might have also been thinking that the British reaction to a 'small nation wishing to be free' was not quite so enlightened as it could have been.

Also attempts to enter the war on the allies side would have quite possibly led to severe civil disturbances with the ultimate worst case scenario been another civil war.

Again amusingly enough the IRA and Irish govt. of the era who Loathed each other have been blended into one sort of composite entity there.

[Blue Angel]

WASP as a point of interest you are aware some of the Jewish leaders of the Haganah met with the Nazis to discuss a deal on migration en mass to Palestin I presume? Out of interest look up Adolf Eichman's meeting with that organisation in Palestine before World 2 in 1937 - he also claimed at his trial many years later that he would have happily offfered weapons to the arabs or jews if it had undermined British sovreignty in the region.

The real world is full of strange marriages of convience such as that - I am no great fan of Russell, he was something of a blowhard but be careful talking about co-operating with Nazis as Britain is currently ruled by a dynasty who have had extensive links with them both prior to and after world war 2 so the stone may drop back through the glasshouse yet!

[Wasp]

WASP, can you answer some things for me about the IRA in this period.
Do you now accpet that the IRA didn't aid the Luftwaffe in any way in the Belfst Blitz?

I am not so sure they did but I am sure if they could have they would have, ffs you only have to look at ira bombings of towns to know that.

Do you now accept that Sean Russell wasn't interested in Nazi Idiology or anti-Semetism?

No I don't, I am not saying he was but his own interest and that of the ira's wasn't soley in purchasing weapons.

Do you now accept that Dublin ISN'T the only place in Europe with a statue of someone who callobrated with Nazi Germany?

I do in a way but the difference is when were these statues erected, after the war or before it. Apart from that any statue of a nazi collaborator should be ripped down and trounced upon. Worse still are those who commemorate such people and slabber on about equality. Are they forgetting who these people collabprated with and what they done? Shame on them all.

and finally are you not even beginning to question the assertions Humpheys made about a "War Journel" considering it isn't mentioned on CAIN or the BBC or any other trusted mainstream historic, political or news site , all of which have comprehensive articals on the IRA of the time?

No not at all, he gave reference to history Ireland and I am quite sure if it was incorrect then he would not have posted it. Are you not beginning to question that it might very well be true?

[Wasp]

De Valera also overruled the justice department who wanted to block admitting 150 Jewish refugee children shortly after the wars end. He in fact did that twice to allow Jewish people to enter. I am not Devs biggest fan but it's a point worth noting.

Good for him, maybe that was to make up for what he had said and done. Why would the justice dept block 150 jewish kids and yet allow nazis in?

The Irish govt. gave 'fuck all' as you put it as it might have struck them and the people of Ireland that only 18 years before the commencement of World War 2 the island next door was waging war on 'small nations seeking to be free' and people might have had that in mind I think. They might have also been thinking that the British reaction to a 'small nation wishing to be free' was not quite so enlightened as it could have been.

Mmmm depends on your version of history and events, I would view the island next door as giving lots to Ireland etc etc. But we will always disagree on that. Leaving the neigbouring island aside what the fuck about the rest of the countries involved? Ireland simply were cowards who couldn't even take part in aiding the allies. They were simply spineless cowards, yet we hear all about the fighting Irish, must only be in terrorist acts against unarmed men, women and children.

Also attempts to enter the war on the allies side would have quite possibly led to severe civil disturbances with the ultimate worst case scenario been another civil war.

Yeh yeh excuses excuses. They were cowards.

Again amusingly enough the IRA and Irish govt. of the era who Loathed each other have been blended into one sort of composite entity there.

Amusingly enough they both either threatened the allies, refused to join the allies, collaborated with the nazis, allowed nazis to have a safe =aven while rejecting kids etc etc.

Here I will let an Irishman speak for himslef. Oh for you setanta as well.

Mr Ryan, one of two Fianna Fail European election candidates in Dublin, said that while the rest of Europe was commemorating the 60th anniversary of the D-Day landings, the start of the liberation of Europe, McDonald was prepared to celebrate a Nazi collaborator.

He said: "As Europe gathers this weekend, on Normandy's D-Day beaches, to honour the memory of those heroic men and women who sacrificed their lives in World War II to liberate Europe and defeat the horror of Nazism, I ask Mary Lou to let the people of Dublin know what she stands for.

"The EU grew out of a determination that Europe would never again experience the tyranny of a dictator like Hitler. You say you want to be a MEP, yet nine months ago you celebrated the memory of a Nazi collaborator. Russell, like others who freely aided the Nazis, is reviled today across Europe, and rightly so.

"McDonald thinks nothing of speaking at commemorations to honour a Nazi collaborator and his contemptible memory. Mary Lou McDonald, please explain to the people of Dublin, Ireland and Europe why you stood shoulder to shoulder with a brutal IRA bomber less than nine months ago to honour a friend of the Holocaust.

"Shame on you Mary Lou and your warped principles."

He challenged McDonald to explain "how you can represent Dubliners' interests in Europe while you honour an ally of Adolf Hitler. You are asking the people of Dublin to send you to Europe - I believe they deserve an explanation.

"Both McDonald and Keenan delivered passionate speeches at the foot of Russell's statue in Fairview Park at a ceremony to honour his memory just last August. Does Mary Lou have no shame?"

Referring to Keenan, who led the bloody Seventies bombing campaign in Britain in which dozens were killed, Mr Ryan pointed out that he has made several pro-IRA speeches in recent times and accused the Dublin Government of being "collaborators".

"The people of Dublin and Ireland should know the kind of company Mary Lou McDonald keeps," Mr Ryan said. He also called on Dublin City Council to demolish the Fairview Park statue of Russell and said it is "an enduring shame [on] our City that we continue to allow this statue of Sean Russell to remain standing".

He added: "In democratic Europe, Dublin remains the only city that still contains a statue honouring an ally of Hitler. Dublin City Council must act immediately and free our city of the EU's last remaining monument to a servant of the Third Reich."

BA try explaining this to your fiancees family, it would be like telling a women of negro origin for example that you support the group, SUPPORT THE commemoration at a stautue of a man who was an ally of the KKK?

[Wasp]

I suppose he is a loyalist and Unionist as well???

[Wasp]

Not all is black and white but this is pretty much so. I quoted from an Irish ff member so I can't get much fairer than that nor much further away from a loyalist or unionist.

[Blue Angel]

I am amused to see once more as whenever or wherever this subject comes up that it is the Irish people who are really the subject of the critique been handed out, which is handed out undercover of a giving republican a dressing down. Inevitably the real agenda pops out once the tempers get frayed and we are treated to asinine remarks such as this:-

Ireland simply were cowards who couldn't even take part in aiding the allies. They were simply spineless cowards, yet we hear all about the fighting Irish, must only be in terrorist acts against unarmed men, women and children.

Any more generalised and ridiculous remarks like that to offer up anyone? The real truth is that Britian seems to think we had some obligation given past history to leap into the fray and couldn't quite get its head around the concept of us not doing so.

And then there is this :-

Amusingly enough they both either threatened the allies, refused to join the allies, collaborated with the nazis, allowed nazis to have a safe =aven while rejecting kids etc etc.


Point no. 1 - the idea of the Irish threatning the allies is laughable. The neareast anyone came to anything that could be remotely interpreted in that light was pointing out whoever invaded the country would have been seen as the enemy. Or is the logical development of this argument to be that in refusing to join the allies that Britain then had a moral right to invade other sovreign states to make them comply? Point 2, refusing to join in the war was not as uncommon as history tries to paint it - 20 states were neutral at the beginning - Ireland's favourable geographical position prevented it been invaded like many of those were. The Americans initally regarded it as an European problem as I am sure you are aware also.

Point 3, yep Nazis were unfortuantely allowed to stay here after WW2 - just like in Britain, the US and many other states. You shouldn't crow too much about that one as a great deal of the Nazi political adminstration was not dismantled after the war contrary to what is commonly taught. Well over two-thirds of the senior judges etc. who were sitting after the war were the same people condemning people under the Third Reich.

The boys own version of history we are routinely subjected to seems to suggest the gallant allies jumped in to bring down the evil dark lord hitler. The reality is a bit more ambigous that that - no-one was leaping in to rescue the Jews or other persecuted people with that in mind as their first objective...

[Blue Angel]

As an add on to the above if you wanted to say there was an underlying climate of anti-semitism in Irleand in some quarters that would be a fair and reasonable point to make. It was true of EVERY european country at the time, including Britain itself.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

blueangel said:

The treaty ports were RETURNED before the outbreak of World War 2 in 1938 so your point is irrelevant as by the outbreak of hostilities Ireland had no binding agreements of any kind in regards to British defence. In any case the ports were seriously neglected and the best use that could have been made of them without serious overhauling was defence via the artillery batteries fitted in the forts and cliffs around them. This was the use the Irish army would have put them to in the event of an invasion as the ones in Cork in particular had high calibre guns overlooking the site of possible landings. The actual plan would have been to block the harbour by deliberately scuttling ships and holding out as long as possible after that in the event of either British OR German forces attempting to land. I notice my grammar and spelling slipped in my long post above as I wrote it in a hurry after waking up late after a long trip home the previous night, apologies for that to those trying to read it. And I fail to see to the point of your last post unless you presume Sean T.O. Ceallaigh had a TARDIS amongst his available equipment and could pop forward in time and see what was to happen over the next 25 years under both Italian and German Fascist regimes. You are applying eagle-eye hindsight.

so without hindsight facism was ok until it started gassing jews?

[Blue Angel]

if britain had been really concerned about jews been killed as it's first objective it would long ago have invaded russia, the ukraine or parts of poland to name just a few at various stages long before world war. Jews were been slaughtered in pogroms in Germany in the 1880s during which both Irish AND British newspapers although they deplored it also carried editiorials saying it was inevitable given the Jewish peoples failure to assimilate.

Again you are using eagle eye hindsight - in 1920 Mussolinni was only a minor political player in Italy and to use contacts between him and the Irish to try and portry Irish nationalism as akin to Nazism is disingenous.

[Blue Angel]

The Jewish people are not foolish or naive enough to believe their safety was an overriding concern for hte allies after alll.... while I may disagree with a large number of Israeli policies over the years in removing themselves from Europe they made a sensible decision as were I Jewish I would have had NO trust in any European country after WW2.

[Blue Angel]

A productive conversation could be had here about anti-semitism in general in europe and in ireland in particular but instead we seem to be having rants about the irish been a race of cowards and folk myths and versions of ww2 as seen via hotspur comics thrust into the thread where the brave tommies beat the horrible boche

[earl]

I wouldn't let it get to you BA. WASP has shown his true colours here. To coin a Unionist phrase, 'His mask has slipped'. He's shown how he really feels. I'm not going to speak out against it, as this type of ignorance can only benefit republicanism in the long run. I only hope that people like him are more in the majority within the Unionist community. There's no need to 'keep them ignorant' as they are doing a good enough job themselves! Casting all peoples of a state in a single negative is the lowest form of intelligence. It allows those of a simple nature to easily characterize others that they don't truely understand. WASP probably still considers all Germans as fascists! It truely wouldn't surprise me if he did. He hasn't given me a reason to think otherwise.

Here's something for everyone to think about as regards the 'valiant' allies during WW2. Reconnaissance planes had spotted and photographed many of the concentration camps around Europe, including their raillinks and rolling stock. A policy of the allies at the time was to attack and destroy raillinks to impede Germany from moving supples, equipment and personnel. Yet, none of the infrastructure to these camps wee destroyed. Why?
The answer is easy. It was a calculated move. The transport of Jews to these camps was seen as a drain on Germany's efforts and rolling stock. They were deliberately not targeted because of this reason. A train full of Jews was no threat to the allies, so this transportation was allowed to go on. The transportation of victims to these camps could of been hampered but was not. There was a History channel programme on this on a few months back.

[Wasp]

I am amused to see once more as whenever or wherever this subject comes up that it is the Irish people who are really the subject of the critique been handed out, which is handed out undercover of a giving republican a dressing down.

You should be on stage. Why have you missed the point I made about the many many Irishmen with the quote 'all gave some and some gave all'? Are you trying to diflect from the real issue here and try to put everyone in the one pot to try to back your false claim?

Inevitably the real agenda pops out once the tempers get frayed and we are treated to asinine remarks such as this:-

Ireland simply were cowards who couldn't even take part in aiding the allies. They were simply spineless cowards, yet we hear all about the fighting Irish, must only be in terrorist acts against unarmed men, women and children.

What is wrong with this? Is it not true? BTW you know fine well I am talking about the Irish gov. when I said Ireland. I have made that plain enough.

Any more generalised and ridiculous remarks like that to offer up anyone? The real truth is that Britian seems to think we had some obligation given past history to leap into the fray and couldn't quite get its head around the concept of us not doing so.

No Ireland had an obligation to the rest of the west not just Britain. I already said leave Britain out of it and what about the rest of the allies.

And then there is this :-

Amusingly enough they both either threatened the allies, refused to join the allies, collaborated with the nazis, allowed nazis to have a safe =aven while rejecting kids etc etc.

What part is wrong?

Point no. 1 - the idea of the Irish threatning the allies is laughable. The neareast anyone came to anything that could be remotely interpreted in that light was pointing out whoever invaded the country would have been seen as the enemy.

Ah BA for someone who likes to show how smart they are YOU have completely misread my post and now are trying to mislead everyone else. Not once did I say the Irish threatened to attack the allies, not once so stop twisting, ducking and diving please.

Or is the logical development of this argument to be that in refusing to join the allies that Britain then had a moral right to invade other sovreign states to make them comply?

See above.

Point 2, refusing to join in the war was not as uncommon as history tries to paint it - 20 states were neutral at the beginning - Ireland's favourable geographical position prevented it been invaded like many of those were. The Americans initally regarded it as an European problem as I am sure you are aware also.

How very true, did I say otherwise?

Point 3, yep Nazis were unfortuantely allowed to stay here after WW2 - just like in Britain, the US and many other states.

Yep and it was flaming disgusting what our countries done. But I suppose some tried to weigh that up with allowing the many Jewish refugee kids in among others.

You shouldn't crow too much about that one as a great deal of the Nazi political adminstration was not dismantled after the war contrary to what is commonly taught. Well over two-thirds of the senior judges etc. who were sitting after the war were the same people condemning people under the Third Reich.

I am not crowing at all, see my above answer and I will say it again, it was disgusting what our countries done. I have no problem saying that, none at all but I think it has hit a nerve with yourself BA. Why???

The boys own version of history we are routinely subjected to seems to suggest the gallant allies jumped in to bring down the evil dark lord hitler. The reality is a bit more ambigous that that - no-one was leaping in to rescue the Jews or other persecuted people with that in mind as their first objective...

Wars are indeed complicated, especially a war of this size involving so many countries and armies. I have never said different but the fact remains the allies still rescued the jews no matter how high up the agenda this was.