Donore By-Election. Can TUV make an impact?

[Blue Angel]

He is on firmer ground when he argues that I am British as I was born in London's East End, at least there's a logic to that I can understand even if I don't agree with it. But telling Jim that been born in Ireland does not make him Irish is puzzling to say the least....

[Wasp]

Jim first of all I don't care if you class yourself as German etc and for that matter anyone on here or elsewhere and that includes the PUL community. I have no problem with the identity you class yourself as but the fact remains anyone born within N.I is British by birth.[/quote]
Unfortunately, you are about 10 years behind the times WASPy.

Under the GFA, an internationally recognised legal agreement between all sovereign parties involved, every person in NI has the right to determine what nationality they are. This right would be respected and recognised by all sovereign parties. This means that someone like Jim, born and bred in NI his whole life, can say that his nationality is Irish, and this would be recognised by both the Irish and British states. This is irrefutable fact and will not change. You can regard someone like that as British through the logic you described, but legally, you would be incorrect. It's been 10 years. Maybe you should be getting used to this idea by now instead of fighting it. All that denying of it's existence hasn't stopped it from being carried out on an every-day basis.

What Jim is only 10 yrs old??? ;D ;D

I am not fighting any idea, I am putting forward facts no matter how people view themselves. Do you think I take any pleasure whatsoever in stating that the majority of the ira during the troubles were British by birth, so by that they are mainly a British terrorist organisation. Think I would rather blame them on being Irish as this is the country that they claim to represent.

If you read my posts you will see I have no problem whatsoever with anyones identity, infact I wish that the ira was 100% Irish, but they are far from it. If they were born in N.I they can claim to be Irish, recognized as Irish but they are British by birth.

[Blue Angel]

nah just born in an occupied state mate and by this logic michael collins, padraig pearse, ernie o'malley, dan breen, tom barry and a host of other famous republicans and IRA men were British as they were all of course born before the Free State and Irish Indepedence.

[Wasp]

blueangel said:

He is on firmer ground when he argues that I am British as I was born in London's East End, at least there's a logic to that I can understand even if I don't agree with it. But telling Jim that been born in Ireland does not make him Irish is puzzling to say the least....

Did I tell Jim he was not Irish?? I said he is British by birth, but you are an Englishman. lol ;D ;D

[Wasp]

If tuv is a quicker route to a UI then you should be hoping they win hands down, which is alot more easier than a reurn to the cowardly sectarian bloodshed for 30 years. Isn't hard to follow.

Well I don't believe they are along the lines of pre-1970s. Setanta how in all seriousness can you complain about anbody in a modern democracy when your party was not interested in anything democratic, you and your party supported trying to bomb and shoot Unionists into submission. Hardly touching on democracy now is it?

[Jim]

I couldn't give a shite about the British comment, it wasnt my point, I just thought it was ignorant because if I tried to tell a unionist they were Irish by birth I'd probably be called a bigot.


The TUV is a quicker way to a united Ireland, because we nationalists and republicans wont stand for a bunch of plebs trying to ruin what has been achieved, but its not the ideal way to achieve a united Ireland, it wont deal with existing problems, it wont deal with new problems, it will be just Westminster finally not giving a shit. Weither SF wasnt interested in anything democratic during the troubles is irrelevant the only party that was interested was the SDLP. SF is a democratic party, they have a democratic vote, they have legitimacy to sit in Government, they are the legitimate Government of NI, that is all fact.

You can all the IRA cowardly all you want Wasp, we republicans are not the ones afraid to sit in Government with our "enemies". You and the "TUV" are. That is cowardly.

[Wasp]

Look it is as simple as this if there was a UI anytime soon there would be an immediate return to violence, and that goes for basically anytime. Beforehand I think the BA would be back on the streets here to help the police and I honestly do not think they could cope because this feeling runs right through all classes of the PUL community not just the working class. I know many people who are either not political or never supported any loyalist violence etc say that they will take to the streets if things keep going the way they are.

I beleive sinn fein wants this and that is why they are doing their best to antagonize the Unionist community. I think TUV offers the best way forward and they are not refusing to ever enter gov. with sinn fein.

Apart from that setanta if you have those feelings for Unionists with your humanitarian side, why did you not show those feelings when the ira were butchering Protestants and try to stop the violence with any influence you had. Like what you tell Harry etc about Unionism as in stand up and be counted so why didn't you? Serious question BTW.

Jim you republicans are not afraid to sit with your enemy in government, you weren't afraid either to shoot your enemy in the back, to plant bombs under their cars, to burst into their homes and shoot them unarmed etc etc, so you lot are very brave indeed.

[Blue Angel]

the british army wasn't afraid to do all those things either wasp - stop painting one side as golden and the other as base metal - I've said before this was a dirty war and there's enough blood on everyone's hands to go round. The British army is not filled with little angels and the pretense that they are all noble chivalrous shining knights is patently false, there are soldiers with integrity and honour in it and then there are those with er, rather less of those qualities. But little progress is going to be made by me chucking up examples to support that - I think we have to accept that ALL sides were quite capable of some truly shocking levels of barbarism once they got going.

[Wasp]

I never said they were angels, of course they have made mistakes, of course they have done wrong but the blood is much thicker on the hands of republicans than that of the BA and you know it. All sides were capable of barbaric acts but it was the ira that carried out these acts routinely, not the BA.

[Wasp]

I am doing plenty at the minute, travelling to republican and loyalist areas for various reasons helping to bring people together. I also deal with drug addicts and criminals trying to help them get there lives together.

Recently I gave up about 13,000 quid for abut 6 to 8 weeks work in return for getting some of these people work under my supervision AND I am doing it for free which is part of the deal. The work now should last about a year or more as I am only there for 1 day per week to train and help develop these individuals. Although I have given up that money which is believe it or not the most I would have ever earned in that space of time, what I am getting in return is priceless.

BTW by no means am I well off, infact far from it so it was alot for me to give up but God willing something else will turn up to help me pay the bills.

Is that enough or do you want more?

[earl]

fair play to ye WASP!

[Wasp]

Earl thanks, but in all honesty I only said this because setanta asked me what I was doing, I didn't say it for self praise or anything like it.

[Wasp]

Cheers, at the end of the day some of these people will get at least temp/full time employment with the guarantee of references and the strong possibility of employment elsewhere if they play ball.

Luckily those whom we are doing the work for are in no rush for completion as it does not affect their business and all they have to do is provide equipment and lunch. I HAVE 3 From a republican background, 1 from a loyalist background and a few from where ever batman and robin are at. Still waiting for an answer for a few more. Each will get about 3 months work at least, unpaid for 1 day a week. After that the people we are doing work for guarantee to provide paid employment for all who play ball for at least 10 weeks either part-time or full time. They will also provide references and try to find employment elsewhere for those involved.

That's about the height of it.