Wasp

[An Fear Dubh]

Now I thought there was some rule about personal abuse.

I must say I feel I am due some sort of explanation or apology or failing that the admin should look to delete Wasp's insult.

As being called scum is in my opinion not acceptable behavior. And I would not accept it in the real world without giving physical retribution to those who threw the insult. I think it is easy and cowardly to throw out such insults here as you hide behind the anonymity of the internet.

Wasp then pretends in other threads that he is friends with those he has and regularly insults. I am not so fickle as to pretend that I am someones friend then in another thread insult them or their beliefs.

[Wasp]

Just to clear things up, TBH afd I try my best to ignore you especially when you seem to try to bring me into some of your posts even when I have not posted on the thread. Now maybe you are doing this to antagonize me and all to often I bite back which is also wrong of me.

But in general you are not in my head or thoughts when I make posts so none of my posts are intended or aimed at you unless of course I am biting back and me being a smart arse. You seem to try to make a point of directing your posts or rather some of them towards me, but that is not the case with myself as I do try to ignore alot of your posts (as in the ones aimed at me, or which I take are aimed at me). You will also notice that even though we have had our digs at eachother I am capable of agreeing with you on some points and this is the same for me with anybody else that I argue/debate with. Where I am at loggerheads on one thread with someone, I can agree with them on another thread. Personnally I think it is childish to not do so as it just shows huffing and puffing because someone strongly disagreed on another thread.

All those that know me here will know that many a heated debate took part and sometimes a pm was sent to apologize especially if I went over the top and I hold my hands up to letting that happen.

I am not the only one here with the opinion of the ira that I have and I will not change my opinion until (if ever it happens), that I have reason to do so. And I equally know that there are those who have that opinion of loyalist groups or the security forces etc and I have no choice but to accept that. You will have to accept that there are those here who see the ira as cowardly scum and those that don't, this is what is called having an opinion and being honest with that opinion.

Setanta said elesewhere something about supporting or justifying unarmed men being shot on the way to mass. I think that is disgusting and wrong etc but I know that is Setanta's opinion and I have to accept that whether I agree with it or not.

You have said a few times about physical retribution and if that is some kind off veiled threat or something then I am afraid it isn't working. Now I could go down the road of offering you on, threatening violence etc etc but that IMO is childish and immature.

If I singled you out and called you scum then I would apologize and I would do my best to make sure that I would not lower myself again. But I haven't, therefore I have nothing to apologize for concerning this, and I certainly will not apologize for my opinion of any group or groups.

btw I have recently offered to leave the forum if I was causing too many problems.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am glad you cleared that up Setanta. That leaves the way free for anyone to say (as an example) - All prods are scum, or whatever insult they like to use so long as it is general then we are not personally insulted and in no way are they in breech of any protcol or stepping outside of acceptable behaviour.

[Blue Angel]

i am loathe to contribute to this thread as it has all the hallmarks of the endless argument that cannot be resolved that you see every so often on all internet forums. I've seen that on every forum i have ever used, whether it be about politics, science-fiction, computer games or whatever. What I will say is although wasp occassionally wants to make me bang my head on a wall in frustration i like many here have a certain level of liking for him even though he has argued with me many times and i have thought some of his remarks were foolish (as i am sure he has thought some of mine were) - i disagree profoundly with his analysis of republicanism but that is the nature of freedom of speech and if this forum is to work he has to be entitled to that viewpoint even if i don't like it.

I also like him though am a bit disturbed by all the comparisions such as, 'if we were in a pub i'd give you a right smacking for that remark', that have been thrown around. Perhaps that's true but we are NOT in a pub and it's one of the advantages and disadvantages of the internet that we can say things here more openly than we might in the real world. I would say I don't think labelling entire groups of people as 'scum' is helpful but I don't think WASP thinks myself or Setanta are personally scum and i'd say he undercuts his own argument therefore. The worst I'd have to say bout WASP is that sometimes he appears confused oras not having thought out his view clearly and occassionally seems influenced by the more dubious exponents of evangelical preaching but i certainly have never thought of him as a rabid bigot or anything of the like.

The only rule i'd personally vote for as to restrictions of speech here (leaving aside obvious restriction on racist slurs) is no personal threats or insults at a personal/family level. Even the blues brothers who i think do stray over the line into bigotry at times may as well speak there mind as not. That doesn't mean i won't pick them up on it but i have a thick enough skin that i can handle it!

[Harry]

I've not seen WASP personally insult anyone.

[Blue Angel]

neither have i - i'd say given the nature of the site the fact is there will be some hard words concerning the IRA/UVF/UDA/British army or whatever and we just have to accept that is how it is -i think WASP is wrong but I don't think any good would be done by gagging him or anyone else here.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not threatening Wasp nor am I looking to gag him or anyone else. I will defend his right to have a fair say. Nor do I wish to see him leave the forum. I do respect him for stepping forward in a forum like this and expressing his views. Yes this is not the real world and we can say things without the repercussions that the real world brings. I do see and understand Wasp's frustration at times, and I recognize that he may feel under pressure from a collective argument put forward by more than one republican and seems at times the lone voice of Unionism. I do feel that such a burden is unjust, and when I note Wasp's frustration I try to step back from the debate. And because of all that I do let a lot of things slide. I understand that we can all get emotional and trying defend a position from more than one opponent can lead you to say things that you might not normally say. I recognize in Wasp's arguments the hurt and obvious pain that he has personally endured. I also accept that as an active Republican I was involved in creating that pain. Regardless of whether I feel my actions were justified or not. I have never gloried or gloated over death, but nor am I ashamed or deny my past.

But after taking all that into consideration I feel that such general insults are not appropriate. To the best of my recollection I have never used such terms even in the general sense, if I have please bring it to my attention. I think such terminology sours the hope of any relationship being developed and sets back the ethos of this forum looking to find common ground and a way forward. Because such relationships are built on trust and mutual respect. Where is the mutual respect when people like myself are refereed to as scum.

I do take on board Wasp's comment about directing argument to him, and I see he is correct in some of that. As the only person in this forum to voice certain views, I hope to draw comment and for people to defend those arguments who have expressed a certain view previously. If there were others who had that view I would engage them. I do have that style to my posts. But I accept the criticism and I will try to limit that especially where Wasp has not posted on a thread.

I think this is as far as I want to take this, I am not looking now for any public comment from Wasp. I do ask that he reads carefully what I have said in this post and give it some thought. I think the point has been made and we must move on and beyond it. And perhaps if the admin wish they might want to lock the thread.