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Post by earl on May 30, 2008 13:30:36 GMT
Totally different situation. Al queeda's objectives is to start a jihad. How do you compromise with that? The only way to tackle them is not directly. Look at the countries where the largest threats are and see if the populations of those countries have a genuine issue with something the west is doing. Also, the Palestine/Israel issue needs to resolved fairly for all. Iraq needs to be sorted out too. Hearts and minds of the ordinary muslim should be won over fairly and tranparently and to the benefit of all, and strip Al Queeda of their support.
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Post by Harry on May 30, 2008 14:02:05 GMT
I'm a lunatic and i'll go blind for revenge. Its my downfall. I can be destroyed by seeking to get even.
My theory which needs some tweaking.
Let the suicide bombers know that we will ID their corpses and wreak revenge on all that was held dear to them. It will not go unpunished. The punishment will be direct. Fire with fire. This would make a few think twice and stop families blessing the attacks etc.
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Post by earl on May 30, 2008 14:19:17 GMT
Indeed, the Israelis and Palestinians have shown that in a religious based war, fighting fire with fire, whilst great for satisfying revenge, does very little to bring it all to an end. Every family member you kill, there will always be another family member to take it up with you later. Unless you are talking about genocide (and I know too well you are not), you'll never kill enough people for the other side to roll over and play dead.
Bringing it closer to home, say a family member of yours was tragically murdered by the IRA, in some kind of retaliation. Would that make you want to sue for peace? Would you say, 'well, we learned our lesson there and won't be doing that again!', or would you tool up and go and get even?
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Post by Harry on May 31, 2008 7:43:23 GMT
Get even. You just have to be so forceful that you force defeat on your enemy
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Post by Jim on May 31, 2008 9:44:26 GMT
Very hard to get even against people who could have been born in Britain and have hidden behind the shadows of society for so many years planning this. They aren't an organisation like the IRA were, with a structure actually based on how real armies operated, so it has to be treated differently. No one really knows whos in Al Qaeda apart from the members themselves and some people pointed out by intelligence services. And if the British intelligence is as clever as it was here then they've probably got a lot of suspicion on behalf of Al Qaeda who will know what exactly MI5/6 are up too. They could even be employing dummies to take the heat off actual volunteers who are planning to bomb, distracting the security forces. No one knows, and you can't go in guns blazing if you can't find them.
The IRA for years would use the propaganda move of if you kill one volunteer ten more will take his place. It may or may not have been true and it didnt deter the British Government from fighting a war with them. They can't do that here. If they kill one Al Qaeda volunteer, a hundred more could take his place and with deadly consequences, you can't catch suicide bombers after they've detonated and killed 50 people the way you could have with the IRA or any other paramilitary throughout the world that doesnt use suicide bombers.
Harry I really think you are underestimating this group, if its even a group. They aren't a clear group that you can go and hunt; you can hunt down the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas, the old PLO, and other organisations, but you can't hunt down Al Qaeda, its not an organisation and it doesn't have a hierarchy to look over every cell, only men with influence. There could be hundreds of volunteers in Britain right now and you or I wouldn't know, and the British government certainly has no idea how many are there, all they can do is monitor who travels to certain locations and gather evidence.
We hear countless times in MP speeches and news reports of the British Governments experience in fighting with, then talking with the IRA, or how it may have stopped some bombs (or those they didnt stop!) from detonating and killing x many people. This is a farse, for one reason. The IRA often gave warnings, very rarely they didn't, the Al Qaeda don't. They go directly onto buses, trains, airports, busy city center streets and stand amongst the crowd and blow themselves up and everyone around them. The British Government has no experience in dealing with that and they can't use their experience here to their advantage, they aren't looking out for two men running away from a white van and heading to a pay phone.
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Post by Harry on May 31, 2008 16:11:25 GMT
I understand your points JIm and by no means do i think i'm right and i understand how my thoughts may actually make things worse.
However, whatever they do to us, they would know that it will not destroy us and we will inflict it back 10x worse. No matter what it takes they would know that for every attack they carry out that they are effectively wiping out all their own loved ones.
Its brutal and i can see all the flaws that my arguement has and i accept we could simply increase the numbers but the terrorist must know that every action will have consequences and those consequences will be massive and personal
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Post by Harry on Jun 5, 2008 13:42:36 GMT
Saying you're going to inflict it back ten times worse is exactly what they want because it brings more people over to them. There's two and a half million muslims in Britain and if you go over and kill their innocent family members, destroy their ancestoral homes and generally launch another Crusade then you'll have a large proportion of them,who have no regard for their own personal safety launcing a campaign from within. You can't beat that. If you think you can then you must have seen it work somewhere and I can't think of anywhere that type of thing has weiled positive results! So what do you do. Sit back and allow these fanatics a free run. Not in my name. We hound them every step of the way. They should never rest easy. They will learn the hard way. This is just my view and i don't expect many to agree with me but you must never be afraid to strike back. Your enemy should be the ones afraid.
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Post by Bilk on Jun 5, 2008 15:14:46 GMT
You do the only thing you can do with Fanatics, you cave in, that's what is being suggested in the opening post. It has worked here we have peace. But are people happy? Now that is totally another question.
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Post by earl on Jun 5, 2008 17:24:04 GMT
You cut the support from them. Isolate the fanatics. Make sure that any action you take on them, won't have the consequences of giving your enemy free propaganda.
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Post by collina on Jun 5, 2008 21:17:52 GMT
First of all, try as I might I can't see much difference between a group carrying bombs onto trains, a group leaving bombs in pubs, a group walking into a bookies and shooting children and a group bombing woman and children with impunity from the air.
I am quite sure the British are already talking to every paramilitary organisation in existence. It is absurd to ask if "Britain 'could talk to al-Qaeda' ", when they have previously been unashamedly allied to Osama. If the Soviet Union had not collapsed the USA and Britain would still be bankrolling and cheer-leading Osama all the way to Moscow, and I can assure you that a 9/11 type event in a major Russian city would have been characterised in a very different manner by the western press than the NY event.
The fact is that all of these groups have their roots in imperialism of some sort or other. Whether it be the the English(not British), American or Communist aggressors, it always turns out the same way. If you turn people out of their homes they bight back hard with whatever means are available.
They say talk is cheap, which might be a consideration given the state of the US economy. Will Obama talk to Osama? Lets see.
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