our wee Country

[Harry]

When my ma and all her family were growing up they had nothing. They all had to share beds and and had to scrape for everything. My ma had to go spud gathering when she should of been at school and she still suffers from it now...her hand writing is ridiculous as she was never taught, she has difficulty filling in any forms because of such poor writing plus she struggles to understand what the most basic of forms actually require!!!!

It was same for everyone growing up in Harryville in those days. They all had nothing, so no one is going to tell me that we were better off than the other side cos we bloody weren't.

I don't think WASP was actually saying it was all anybodys fault but it was merely tongue in cheek comments as the impression that sometimes prevails from some nationalists/republicans is that they are faultless in this whole state of affairs and thats not the case!!

[earl]

ulster2016 said:

In 1985 and then again in 1987 Irish Republican terrorists placed car bombs close to Windsor Park in Belfast. The target on both occasions was the Northern Ireland v England games,
Actions like this I feel created a "Sectarian" feeling for many years within Windsor and the Unionist community.

Was this before or after Loyalists threw grenades into the stands where nationalists were standing?

[earl]

bilk said:

The reasons given for republican violence was to free the poor downtrodden nationalists, who had nothing while the unionists lived in palaces. No one is saying that it was all the fault of republicans, but I do see where this argument is coming from. I have been involved in many similar arguments, and have always been told that no matter how bad things were for me, they were worse for Catholics/nationalists. The more people who come on here with the truth about this matter the better I say. This was a myth preached by republicans as an excuse for murder. When the truth really was, that the unionist party treated all of the working classes with contempt. Giving the lie to the main argument for republican violence.

Bilk,

How the hell are ya mate! Haven't heard from you in a while. Bearhunter is not trying to play the victims game. Old WASPy boy is when he said:

People were probably fed up to the teeth with republican violence and when they targeted our home ground which also hosts a club with a large Unionist following is it any wander some of the songs that were sung were sang at games.Yet people wander why there was sectartian tensions at Windsor. This just proves it wasn't all the big bad Proddies fault afterall.

Would you agree with this statement that all sectarian chants are the IRA's fault, or would you agree that it takes two to tango and accept that responsibility rests with both parties. In the explicit case of sectarian chants the responsibility lies with those who sing them.

WASP,
By your logic here, if an African terrorist had ever threatened me, I could sing racist songs and chants about all Africans of every description. What way does your mind work? Explain how a terrorist threat gets these supporters off the hook for singing sectarian chants about Catholics? Do you approve of this behaviour, since you are making excuses for it?

[Wasp]

bearhunter said:

No, WASP, of course it was the Nationalists' fault. Out of nowhere and for no reason whatsoever, the ungrateful beggars conjured up the IRA to give the kindly, caring, sharing Unionists lackery which was utterly, utterly uncalled for. What a lovely vision of the past you have, WASP, all roses and fluffy clouds, back in the day when the Nationalists were grateful to be just allowed to dwell in teh same wee paradise as their betters.

Bearhunter that post is unfair, I never once said it was the nationalist fault. If you read my post I said "This just proves it wasn't ALL the big bad Proddies fault afterall."

[Wasp]

Harry my mother is from a family of nine who lived in a two bedroom terraced house, all her brothers and sisters par 1 left school at about 14. My dad used to help his mum after school wash down pig styes and the farm yard. Both my parents are from working class families and none of them had it easy. I remember as a child being bathed in the kitchen sink FFS. My late aunt who died recently lived in Harryville all her life and she used to tell us stories of when she was young and they certainly were not ways that I would like to have to live through.

Earl once again you are accusing me in the wrong, others see what I was saying but for some reason you don't.

[bearhunter]

Point taken WASP, in your post you never said it was ALL the fault of Nationalists. I'm just fed up with the attitude among many unionists that everything was fine and dandy until the ungrateful taig bastards decided out of the blue to turn on their betters. And please don't tell me that attitude doesn't exist, becuas eyou know fine well it does.
As for the rest of the "I used to dream of livin' in a shoe box" brigade, I made it entirely clear, I thought, that I am not trying to start a contest to see who had least. Yes, I grew up poor, but I don't wear it like a fucking badge.

[Wasp]

bearhunter said:

Point taken WASP, in your post you never said it was ALL the fault of Nationalists. I'm just fed up with the attitude among many unionists that everything was fine and dandy until the ungrateful taig bastards decided out of the blue to turn on their betters. And please don't tell me that attitude doesn't exist, becuas eyou know fine well it does.
As for the rest of the "I used to dream of livin' in a shoe box" brigade, I made it entirely clear, I thought, that I am not trying to start a contest to see who had least. Yes, I grew up poor, but I don't wear it like a f**king badge.

No problem Bearhunter, we all can get fed up with the attitude of BOTH Unionists and nationalists etc claiming likewise. Unionists get fed up with the butter wouldn't melt in our mouths attitude and the we done nothing, it was all YOU YOU YOU. And it is the exact same for nationalists concerning Unionists.

[bearhunter]

Very gracious of you, mate. Personally opne of the main reasons I left Ireland was to get away from the smell of burning martyr as everyone pulled on the sackcloth and ashes and revelled in their victimhood. It's a big, wide, colourful world out there, folks, don't be hamstrung by the sort of tunnel vision Irish politics engenders.

[Wasp]

Bearhunter if I hadn't any kids I would be off, for a while at least. I know a guy who's son went to New Zealand for a gap year and now he wants to move there permanently. Also my ex minister's daughter wnats to settle there. She loves the place. If you don't mind me asking why did you choose N.Z?

[bearhunter]

I was brung low by a woman
I married a Kiwi and we moved here. Unsuccessful marriage-wise but a life-saver lifestyle-wise.

[Wasp]

Going by what my old minsters daughter says NZ has alot to offer and the scenery is overwhelming.

[Bilk]

setanta said:

as bilk has correctly pointed out The Offical Unionist Party treated all working class with contempt.
BUT Nationalists did have it worse than the Unionist working class. Much higher unemployment, much higher infant mortality rates, much lower life expectancy, worse housing conditions, restricted access to education and so on.
Working class Unionists did have it bad. But Nationalists had it worse.
I'll post stastics to back all of these points in due course
Attempts to unite the working class were initially successful until the Official Unionists played the sectarian card as I've pointed out in another thrend.

Setanta, I'm glad you agree with me on the subject of the unionist party. But I'm afraid I disagree with you that there is such a thing as a level of poorness. If you are poor you are poor, it is a silly argument, I have heard guys in bars make such arguments and it is silly. It went along the lines of, "When I went to school I had no shoes" only to be bettered by "Yeah well when I went to school we were so poor I had no socks either" and on and on it goes. All the working classes were poor, and illeducated. In fact the Catholic nationalist schools were better schools than the state schools. But like I say I am not getting into who was poorer than who. What I objected to, was the trumpet call of republicans that they were fighting for the good of the downtrodden nationalists who were poor while the unionists were rich. Because it sounded better than saying they were carrying on a centuries old war that had not yet been settled. They didn't give two fiddlers damns about the catholic/nationalist working classes, they were cannon fodder the same as the rest of us. In fact any group that got together that might have done something to help in the plight of nationalist working class people, like the NICRA, were immeditely hi-jacked,. For fear that if the nationalist working classes, along with the unionist working classes, where to better themselves, then perhaps they might actually like being British. Or at least have less of an interest in a UI. Which is what their murder campaign was all about and had nothing to do with the plight of the working classes.

[bearhunter]

A lot of people say it looks like Ireland, but it isn't really. The mountains are huge, the rivers clean enough to drink from and the country itself (which is about the size of Great Britain) has only 4.2million people in it. You're never more than 80km from the beach and you can swim in the morning, ski in the afternoon and fish in the evening if you like. A great place and teh one place I will always come back to.

[An Fear Dubh]

I totally agree that measuring levels of poverty between people who are poor is silly.

Yes republicans did use the 'trumpet call' to appeal to the economic desires of catholics who gave a passing nod towards nationalism so long as the sacrifce to achieve that goal did not infringe upon them or theirs. The same as Unionists played the 'orange card' and the fears of job losses to catholics to stir up the protestant community.

But while we can acknowledge that both protestants and catholics were poor. We must also acknowledge that the tactics used by Unionists in power was to divide the working class. To play on the fears of each community, and when money was used by government in - housing, creating employment, social improvements. Unionists in power tried to ensure their supporters/voters got a bigger slice of the small cake. After years of this we ended up with a situation that gave natuaral rise to the formation of the civil rights movement. And now catholics demanded an equal share and the imbalance to be addressed. Thus confirming the fears within the protestant community that was in most cases equally poor.

So yes it is silly but we must have some measure to understand the depth of the problem, to see if we are addressing the problem and with limited budgets who gets and who does not get a slice. And equality dictates that once the measure is agreed the fair thing is to start with those who measure the lowest.

This is the reality we live in.