Sinn Fein

[irishman]

Sinn Fein as a political party where does it go from here?

[bearhunter]

Wind itself up, retire the old guard and put the non-tainted ones into FF.

[bearhunter]

Offering a left alternative that how many people are taking up? Go on, how many? How many people in Ireland since 1918 have voted for a left-wing party? The left-right fight is over, Setanta, socialism was left by the roadside a long time since, for better or worse. Regardless of the fact that many of socialism's more acceptable tenets live on through socail democratic parties, Ireland has never been a left-wing country and nor will it ever be.

[Jim]

May 7, 2008 20:30:42 GMT bearhunter said:

Offering a left alternative that how many people are taking up? Go on, how many? How many people in Ireland since 1918 have voted for a left-wing party? The left-right fight is over, Setanta, socialism was left by the roadside a long time since, for better or worse. Regardless of the fact that many of socialism's more acceptable tenets live on through socail democratic parties, Ireland has never been a left-wing country and nor will it ever be.

By the last election I would say a significant amount of the electorate.

Keeping in mind that the Irish voting system works by constituency and not by overall vote. If Sinn Fein had more block voting per constituency they would have made a lot more gains according to how many people voting for them. They certainly bridge a gap for gobshites voting Labour but thinking that Labour are just Fianna Fail with a different name.

Left wing does not equal socialism, the idea of socialism has been dead for years mate and if you knew anyone in Sinn Féin currently working their system you would know they are the only party in the south offering an alternative to medium politics while not being overly left.

"The future for SF"? Candidates for coalition in the next 2 elections.

[bearhunter]

"I'm not willing to remove a core tenant of what it is to be a Sinn féin member just so I can chase the populist vote."

Fair enough. I hope those few seats on the opposition benches are comfy. You're going to be there for a good while yet in the south.

[bearhunter]

A tour of the Dail? Done it, used to have relatives elected there. Not that impressive, although outside the chamber is nicer, I thought.
As for the PDs and the Greens, the reason they have carved a niche (and it will never be more than that and they will be dropped by the bigger parties ASAP) is that their ethos appeals to people. The right-wing, uber-capitalist PDs appeal to the grasping miser inside every wage earner and the Greens appeal to the liberal handwringing element in our souls that feels vaguely sorry about having raped the earth while lining our pockets. Face it, policies on the National Question and leftist politics have been left behind by the vast majority of Irish voters, who are at bottom as rapacious a bunch of Me Feiners as you will ever meet.

[Jim]

BH the way you talk about the irish electorate you would think they are thatcherites and its not the case. The mainstream parties may be center-right but its become less of an important stance now. Since the 'RA are gone its not as controversial to invite SF into coalition, and considering they're fast gaining real government experience and not just being FF puppets like Labour and the PDs they are very likely to become favourites for coalition in the next few elections.

SF have moved in the past few years of simply being a one policy party and its still in a position where it is saw as the party only campaigning for a united Ireland but its also quickly changing as they adopt their new found political role to suit the electorate. That takes decades, it took British Labour 80 bloody years!

[An Fear Dubh]

Is today's Sinn Féin a socialist/left-wing alternative party? I suppose that depends on how you define socialism. Bearhunter makes the obvious observation that many 'socialist demands' live on or have become part of capitalist party politics. So how can a 'socialist demand' become part of capitalism, it can not unless such demands are not exclusive to one side of the scale. Understanding this is important to how you define which party is socialist or offering a left wing alternative.

The only way to tell the difference between Left vs Right is through economic policy. How the party proposes the wealth of Ireland is divided, ie Tax and how we spend the tax collected. We saw in the last southern elections that Sinn Féin had two opposing economic policies one in the north and another in the south. If a party has an econimic policy which is fluid and changes depending on the political climate. Then it is impossible to judge whether that party is one or the other. I have no doubt and know many good people with left-wing yearning within Sinn Féin who aspire to have a more equal society. But such aspirations does not make Sinn Féin left-wing. The same can be said for any political party - there are many good individuals who aspire to have a better society.

Sinn Féin are a popularist politics party. Based on their changing econimic policy.

Bearhunter makes another obvious observation, that support for 'left-wing' parties or politics does not exist in Ireland. I would agree and argue that Sinn Féin/Labour/The Greens are not representive of socialism, they are a poor shade of 'left-wing, and are probably best defined as 'social democratic' (but differing from the European variety).

One of the defining leaders of Fianna Fáil was Charlie Haughey. He was the mentor of Bertie Ahern. It was under Bertie that Ireland saw the surge of the 'Celtic Tiger'. Seen by most capialist economists as a boom period. Charlie Haughey was a great admirer of Thatcher. There should be little doubt that FF policy makers and think-tanks took many of Thatchers tenets on board and adapted them to suit the Irish equation. The difference in Ireland is that once FF truely embarked along a defined economic route (Thatcherism - Irish style) that brought economic benifit for some and created a popular belief that everyone would benifit from supporting this goal. We already had a weak and divided opposition to FF - FG + Labour. Now that the prospect of economic prosperity loomed the opposition weakened and divided further. In Ireland we do not have strong trade unions or pressure groups that mount sustained campaigns unless those campaigns are based in political parties. So we did not see conflict between state (Thatcherist policy) and those not benifiting from the 'Celtic Tiger' in the same way as we did in England.

[earl]

AFD

We already had a weak and divided opposition to FF - FG + Labour. Now that the prospect of economic prosperity loomed the opposition weakened and divided further. In Ireland we do not have strong trade unions or pressure groups that mount sustained campaigns unless those campaigns are based in political parties. So we did not see conflict between state (Thatcherist policy) and those not benifiting from the 'Celtic Tiger' in the same way as we did in England.

Whilst the main objective of FF was similar to Thatchers objectives, the execution was entirely different. What you have said is definitely true, but it wouldn't be the overriding difference between what happened in Britain in the 80's and here in the 90's. Thatcher's style was confrontational. If the unions didn't like what she was proposing, then tough. FF used social partnership to advance to the objective. This was where government, public and private elements moved forward together under a social partnership scheme. Rather than confronting the unions like Thatcher did, FF got them onside. This social partnership contract is up this year, and the unions are already looking for a larger cut of the pie, despite an obvious global economic downturn.

[Jim]

Ofcourse Ireland didn't see the same conflict between state and union that Britian saw under Thatcher, but Thatcher was a very different politician to any that Ireland had saw in the same time period, right up to Bertie himself, as were Major and Blair. Her methods were completely different to Berties.

Fianna Fail are a lot closer to New Labour in how they dealt with trade unions, not Thatcher.

[An Fear Dubh]

I agree with Earl when he says that FF used a different style to Margret Thatcher.

Let us not get confused at the driving force/core - Economics.

While Margret Thatcher the leader had a confrontational style, she or her 'think-tank' had identified a new method for financial capitalists (as opposed to industrial etc capitalists) to make profit, [This is the core point].
Let us also not forget that internal politics brought Margret Thatcher down.

Thatcher is remembered on two fronts; One, her methods. Two, her Economic policy. Her methods were obviously flawed and doomed any gains to short-term ones. But others like Haughey and Fitzgerald recognized the benefits of the other. Haughey's era had passed, and Fitzgerald lacked the power base and ability to put such economic practice into effect. New Labour = New Thatcher, or Thatcher without the poor methods. This is why it has been so hard for the Tory party to make gains because economic policy is very similar. Do not get sucked in by the political spin, that New Labour is something new, it is Thatcher's economic policy part two. And FF policy is Thatcher's economic policy Irish style.

Let us not get confused over social democratic issues and social partnerships they are just methods and mean little to the core of economic politics. How did the average worker gain from the Trade Unions in Ireland agreeing to the social contract, what were the benefits for them? What it did do was neuter what little Trade Union opposition there might be and isolate others as mavericks and outside the majority.