Innovation or exploitation?

[earl]

Way to go Sheriff Joe!! He's got it bang on the money IMO. Prisoners owe a debt to society, not society owing them a comfy stay. They should pay their debt by being put to work for society. Now you can go overboard with this and it would become slave labour, but once it's within reason, the inmate is physically (and possibly mentally) able for the work, and the hours are within reason, I see no harm. Maybe some inmates actually might start feeling like members of society through doing things like this and reform in some way.

[bearhunter]

I must remember to bring this guy up the next time some American has a go at China over using prison labour to produce goods for export.

[Bilk]

Have to admit to a liking for this guy, he's my kind of jail boss and sherrif. It doesn't matter what some other dogooder American says about the Chinese, this guy would probably agree with the Chinese and what they are doing with their prisoners. Prisoners and skivers (those on social of some sort) are the only people I know who get their meals and bed and board without having to work for it like the rest of us. Way to go sherrif, and more power to your elbow mate. Stand in an elecection for the assembly here, and I'll not only vote for you, I'll canvas for you till I drop

[Louisiana Lady]

I say...........SHERIFF JOE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!

Crime should not be rewarded.
There are some prisoners that live better than than a lot of Americans. They move into what some of our poor would consider a 5 star hotel. They don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, if they have a roof over their head and a warm bed to sleep in or how they will take care of their medical problems. They have cable TV, books, and computers for their use. They associated with other like minded and then go back into society to repeat their actions.
I think what Sheriff Joe is doing is brilliant. No hand-outs !!!He teaches them the value of work and makes them responsible and self-sufficient. He exposes them to real life and gives them a purpose that at the end of the day must give them a feeling of self-worth which is more than likely something many of them have never had. This changes them to become better members of society when released.

[Jim]

Crime should not be rewarded but criminals are not slaves, either.

[bearhunter]

Fair enough LL, but perhaps if America turned some of its undoubted talents to helping the poor then there would be fewer prisoners and fewer people getting outraged over prisoners having access to television. Oh that's right, America doesn't do handouts, so f*ck the poor. I've been inside a prison and I'd rather live poor outside than rich inside.

[Louisiana Lady]

You are right bearhunter. Helping our own poor in America would help immensely with some of problems here, and I have always been more than puzzled and completely frustrated that so many are struggling through life.
I love that America is big on foreign aid and I believe with all my heart that we should help our neighbors, but there is an old saying……… “Charity begins at home”. Every year we pay a huge portion of our income to the government in the form of taxes. A very large portion of that money paid, goes to foreign aid, yet here in our own country we have citizens who can’t afford the necessities in life…..from children who go to bed hungry to our elderly who can’t afford their required medications. I can’t imagine any family member who would ever give away what they have to help someone before they saw to the needs of their own family, but it happens here every day with our government. It is another example of our government not using common sense. Every member of the American family should be adequately fed, suitable clothed, decently housed, and given a proper education without it being a burden of worry. Then and only then should we lend a helping hand to those outside our borders.
Now back to the prisoners. That was my complaint……that our prisoners here in the states don’t have these everyday worries because they well taken care of as our prisons here are in no way barbaric. I consider the programs that Sheriff Joe is caring out to be forms of rehabilitation. As an animal lover, I especially love the program for caring for the dogs. I recently saw a documentary on dogs in prison. Puppies were given to certain prisoners to raise and obedience train as service dogs. These dogs were allowed to stay with the men constantly from cell to yard. Many of these were hardened criminals, even a few that were on death row and most had tears in their eyes when they had to present their well-trained dog to the new owner. To stay in the program these men had to maintain a certain level of cooperation and behavior. They wanted so badly to stay in the program and others wanted so badly to qualify in order to have the companionship and love of these animals that the disruptive behavior dropped to a minimum in the prison. The men who finished serving their terms left the facility with a different outlook on life feeling good for the fact that they had fulfilled a purpose in life, and none of those men were ever returned to prison.

[bearhunter]

"our prisons here are in no way barbaric"

I'd take some issue with that, to be honest, LL. Not trying to be an asshole, but they are. Incredibly barbaric. I wouldn't spend 10 minutes in one.

[Jim]

May 1, 2008 7:36:49 GMT bearhunter said:

"our prisons here are in no way barbaric"

I'd take some issue with that, to be honest, LL. Not trying to be an asshole, but they are. Incredibly barbaric. I wouldn't spend 10 minutes in one.

you wouldn't have much of a choice

[Louisiana Lady]

May 1, 2008 7:44:34 GMT @setanta said:

I am in no way at all having a go at the USA but the acceptence of repeated rape and sexual assault on vunerable prisioners by prision authorities is just plain wrong.
It also happens in other nations Jails etc. I bet everyone is thinking of Midnight Express now! There was only ever one case here in Ireland and that was of one sex offender on another sex offender, as they're segergated from the rest of the prision population.

If Sherriff Joe could stop that then he deserves to be President of the USA alright!

Of course it's wrong! just as it was wrong for those who raped a defenseless woman or child and are in now serving their time in prison And I don't think violence of any kind should be tolerated inside prison walls and many of the programs Sheriff Joe has it place it bringing it to a minimum.

[Bilk]

BH I don't think anyone is suggesting that violence in a jail is ok, it's not, and the rapes etc etc are in the main carried out by the inmates. The reaon being there is very little punishment for bad behaviour in many prisons. You may think a prison is barbaric, and some are, but people put there should not be lead to believe that they are going to be made as comfortable as possible until their time is up. Where in that is the fear of returning, there is none. No one in society gets to lie back and wait for their food to be put on the table, only prisoners. There is nothing in this world that is mine as of right, so what makes people think that someone who has commited a crime has a right to things that I and many like me can't have? I don't have a god given right to three square meals a day. I certainly don't have the god given right to a television or computer game and all the other things that prisoners have given to them while they are in jail. They are in jail for two purposes, one is punishment, that happens when their freedom is taken away from them, the other is rehabilitation. To rehabilitate someone is not to cater for their every need without them having to give anything in return. Making prisoners work for what they receive is a good lesson in life. It's what the rest of us have to do. And to base the fact that you or anyone else for that matter (because I'm sure it applies to just about everyone else) would "rather be poor outside than rich inside in jail" is silly. Rich or poor inside a jail, you are in there for a reason, and that reason was in one way or another you broke the law. A serious enough law to warrant being put in prison. So in that respect anything that happens to a prisoner in there is no one's fault but the prisoners. Assuming what happens is in itself not outside the law. This thread details what this guy does, there is nothing in what he does that I would think was outside the law, nor does it come even close to rape etc.

[bearhunter]

Hang on Bilk, I htink you're mixing up a couple of things here - I never said that treating prisoners like this sherriff does was like rape. In fact I never even mentioned rape anywhere in my posts. I just said that the American prsion system is barbaric and if you watch any of the documentaries about hi-security penitentiaries in the US you'll see for yourself.
But getting back to Sherriff Joe, fair enough he does a lot of good, I just don't agree with slave labour, that's all. If you want prisoners to work then that is surely up to the judge to impose a sentence of hard labour. The idea of making them pay their way strikes me as somewhat ridiculous as it supposes that at some level the prisoner actually wants to be in prison. I've worked with and talked to a lot of ex-prisoners and not one of them ever wanted to go to prison. The only person I ever knew who did was a mental case wino in my home town who used to get locked up for the three coldest months of the year.

[Bilk]

May 1, 2008 20:10:31 GMT bearhunter said:

Hang on Bilk, I htink you're mixing up a couple of things here - I never said that treating prisoners like this sherriff does was like rape. In fact I never even mentioned rape anywhere in my posts. I just said that the American prsion system is barbaric and if you watch any of the documentaries about hi-security penitentiaries in the US you'll see for yourself.
But getting back to Sherriff Joe, fair enough he does a lot of good, I just don't agree with slave labour, that's all. If you want prisoners to work then that is surely up to the judge to impose a sentence of hard labour. The idea of making them pay their way strikes me as somewhat ridiculous as it supposes that at some level the prisoner actually wants to be in prison. I've worked with and talked to a lot of ex-prisoners and not one of them ever wanted to go to prison. The only person I ever knew who did was a mental case wino in my home town who used to get locked up for the three coldest months of the year.

Sorry BH I was answering both you and setanta at the same time, I shoulda made myself more clear on that point.
I don't expect any prisoner would want to be in prison, at least I can't imagine one would. I really don't understand how suggesting that prisoners, like the rest of society, should be made to work for what benifits they receive relates to slave labour. Nor do I see how it would suggest that they would want to be in prison. I also think that lazy skivers who are on the dole and have no intention of ever working, should be made to work for whatever benifits they receive. Remembering of course, I, and millions of others like me, are paying for those benifits to both prisoners and skivers. What I do see as slave labour is me, working all my life and paying in one way or another, either by income tax or all the other taxes I pay, to the tune of about 50% of what I earn, to keep both sets of skivers in the luxury to which they have become accustomed.

[bearhunter]

This was just released here by the Prisoners Aid and Rehabilitation Society, a voluntary group that tries to re-integrate ex-cons and keep them on the straight nad narrow. They make a couple of interesting points regarding Sherriff Arpaio:

Sensible Sentencing Model Prison in Torture Doco
Thursday, 26 July 2007, 12:01 pm
Press Release: Rethinking Crime and Punishment

Sensible Sentencing Trusts Model Prison features in Torture Documentary

Joe Arpaios Tent City prison in Arizona was a main feature of Wednesday nights TV One documentary Torture: Americas Brutal Prisons. The Sensible Sentencing Trust announced last week that it would be visiting the prison with a televison team, to look at alternatives to the current prison system, and to reduce the burden of cost on the New Zealand taxpayer.

The British documentary showed that the number of prisoners in the county jail system had doubled since Arpaio took office. It documented cases of brutality and death within the prison, the use of restraint chairs, and the response of prisoners families to the deaths within the prison; including the formation of a Mothers against Arpaio group.

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Kim Workman, Project Leader of the Rethinking Crime and Punishment project, is appalled that the Garth McVicar and Stephen Franks consider that the prison has lessons for the New Zealand justice system.

The Tent City was originally established as a response to prison overcrowding, and is an extension of the county jail system. Arpaios penchant for self-promoting publicity and punishment is well documented. His get tough approach has considerable support in the deep south, and has been well documented by the media.

The idea that running a prison of this kind could present savings to the taxpayer does not hold up. The tents and food both army surplus and on the surface it is a cheap deal. But Arpaio controls both the police and prisons, so he uses savings in prison to prop up the police. For every amenity that he cuts from the prisons, he buys some unnecessary and expensive piece of equipment, gets the county involved in lawsuits due to his cruel prison management, or pays for an extravagant publicity stunt. In his second term of office alone, he bought a howitzer with $15,000 tires, a $70,000 armored car, spent $3 million to move to a penthouse office with big-screen TVs and other luxuries, and spent more than a million dollars on take-home vehicles for his favorite staffers. By 2001, some $16 million had already been paid to plaintiffs in successful lawsuits against the Sheriffs Department in relation to inmate deaths.

If the television crew do decide to go, then they should conduct a proper investigation. Any TV crew worth its salt would not want to leave Arizona without seeking interviews with Arpaios detractors as well as his promoters. Given the Sensible Sentencing Trusts concern for the victims of crime, they should look at how the hard-labour camp has harmed people, as well as helped them. I suggest the following list:

The Family of Scott Norberg. Norberg died in custody in 1996. Norberg was shocked more than 20 times with a stun-gun, including on his testicles. Norberg was already handcuffed and face down when officers dragged him from his cell and placed him in a restraint chair with a towel covering his face. After Norberg's corpse was discovered, detention officers accused Norberg of attacking them as they were trying to restrain him. The cause of his death, according to the Maricopa County medical examiner, was due to positional asphyxia. Sheriff Arpaio investigated and subsequently cleared County detention officers of any criminal wrongdoing. Norbergs parents filed a lawsuit against Joe Arpaio and his office. The lawsuit was settled for $8.25 million (USD) following a highly contentious legal battle. Despite vowing to never settle, the case quickly closed after it was disclosed the Sheriff's office had destroyed key evidence in the case.

The Family of Brian Crenshaw: Brian Crenshaw was a blind inmate beaten into a coma by guards working under Arpaio. Crenshaw suffered injuries that included a perforated intestine and a broken neck. He later died at a local hospital. When asked about the incident, Arpaio insisted, "The man fell off a bunk."

Amnesty International USA, and its 1996 report into allegations that inmates in the County jail had been ill-treated; misuse of the restraint chair in other cases; the conditions for female juvenile detainees; and poor conditions in a facility in which jail inmates were housed in tents

The Police Officers Associations throughout the State of Arizona who have voted "no confidence" in Joe Arpaio as Sheriff. These include the State of Arizona Fraternal Order of Police, Fraternal Order of Police Lodge Five, Maricopa County Deputies Association, Arizona Cops.

Former patrol and jail staff who attest to the unsafe conditions within the patrol and jail system, which in turn has contributed to severe staff shortages.

The Mothers against Arpaio the mothers of prisoners who have died in the County Jail system under Arpaios leadership.

The Sons of Italy , who dropped Arpaio as being a "Top Cop" citing controversy over allegations of people dying or being seriously injured while being held in Arpaio's jails. Quote: "We just believe that law enforcement officers, like Caesar's wife, must be above suspicion,"

Corrections researchers at the Arizona State University: Arpaio spent over $10,000 to have Arizona State University study recidivism in his jail system. The 1998 ASU study tracked 4,800 released Maricopa County inmates and showed no evidence that harsh treatment reduced recidivism. Arpaio discounted this study as false and continues to claim that his jail program has reduced crime in the valley.

The Editor of the Phoenix New Times, a newspaper which has been maintaining a close surveillance over Joe Arpaio since he came to office, and has documented his excesses, and abuse of authority.

Has the crime rate reduced as a result of all this activity? Not at all. As of December 2006, Phoenix is strapped with a crime rate that, according to FBI statistics, now tops that of New York, Los Angeles or Baltimore.

If they conduct the investigation well, it will confirm two things. Firstly, that New Zealanders, who have a reputation for being decent, fair and humane will want nothing to do with a prison system that runs along the lines proposed by Arpaio. Secondly, and something that we already know, that boot camps run the Arpaio way do not reduce re-offending, and are more likely to increase it.