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Post by Wasp on Apr 18, 2008 21:13:32 GMT
FOR GOD AND ULSTER
Arthur Aughey...Arthur Aughey was born in Banbridge. He studied at the Queen's University Belfast and Hull University. Senior Lecturer in Politics at the University of Ulster.
The meaning of the expression 'For God And Ulster' I can understand in a number of distinctive ways. In philosopie mode the phrase poses interesting questions of primacy. Does fidelity to God take predence over loyalty to place,setting ethical boundries to the means by which Ulster may be defended? Or is loyalty to Ulster invested with a righteousness which justifies all means to achieve its security ? Does the phrase exemplify perfectly Conor Cruise O'Brien's definition of the religious quality of modern nationalism - Godland ? All three things are partly true.
In historical mode it is easy to recognise similar sentiments in other examples from the past - 'Faith and Fatherland',Gott mit uns,even 'For Harry! England and St George!' And that knowledge of others' historical understanding allows us to ask of ourselves - Whose God ? Whose Ulster ? On the other hand,in our contemporary political world where spin-doctors believe they can fire the popular imagination with such stunning banalities as 'back to basics' or 'the stakeholder society' it can be seen that 'For God And Ulster expresses a romantic nobility with all the muscular certainity of a world that is gone.
Of course these are very cerebral reflections. For anyone from a Protestant background this phrase is more than an object of contemplation. It may also provoke a sentimental response,even from someone like myself who does not participate in the traditional rites of the Protestant community and who feels as much of an outsider as an insider. How might that response be described ? Perhaps the best way to explain it would be to describe my reaction to a loyalist band parade which recently distracted me as I went about a Saturday's shopping.
The sound that summoned me was drums,not bells,and I found it difficult to remain immune to it. Though I would build my shrines to reason and not to God and Ulster I was drawn to the spectacle of Protestant Boys and Young Defenders,to the bravado of these latter-day Sons of Ulster. I followed them - discreetly - as they shouldered their silken martyrs and their icons of civil and religious liberty along the Cregagh Road,down the Woodstock,to turn left onto My Lady's Road. This was Belfast,my Belfast,transformed into Belfast,their Belfast. As the music faded I can admit to feeling briefly a strange kind of loss. For however much my liberal conscience might rebel,what I had experienced was not an alien practice. It was also another part of me. To paraphrase Terence I might say: Iam of the Ulster Protestant community and count nothing of that community indifferent to me.
In my general state of ironic intellectual detachment I have little time for either God or Ulster. Yet a greater irony is this: the sound of a loyalist band can stir emotions and identifications which are not simply momentary,not simply illusory,but real. ''The accent of one's birthplace,'' as La Rochefoucauld said,''persists in the mind and heart as much as in speech.''
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Post by Wasp on Apr 19, 2008 16:12:28 GMT
Ian Major.....Ian Major is a missionary pastor to prisioners in N.I. He has been involved in prision ministry since 1980 working full time since 1991. He has contributed articles on the Ulster situation to the Belfast Telegraph and the Evangelical Times and has spoken at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation in Dublin,and ECONI's Christian Fellowship Forum in Belfast.
The phrase 'For God And Ulster' has strong emotive connotations for me. The reasons for that are complex,some shared with most Ulstermen but others distinctive to my evangelical Baptist position.
In common with many of my fellow countrymen in Ulster,I regard myself as an Ulsterman first,British second and finally - in a strictly geographical sense - Irish. That expression of national identity is an historic one. Ulster nationalism came to self-awareness during - and due to - the Home Rule crisis at the turn of the century. Those who had been happy to think of themselves as British and Irish were forced by the British and Irish either to become soley Irish or to rebel against the British and go their own way. My forefathers chose the latter and asserted the right of their Ulster-Scots nationality above that of the British Union of nations. Their right to national self-determination did not depend on the whim of the English,Scots, Welsh or,indeed,the Gaelic Irish. Using the motto 'For God And Ulster' my forefathers united to keep their nation free from political and religious tyranny. Today,I stand in their place with those same noble desires,knowing that history - in the sectarian record of the Irish state - has vindicated their assessment of Irish nationalism.
Ulster people today,however,face a changed Irish state and the nationalism it represents. In the course of these present Troubles it seems to have become evident to many Irish nationalists that the Ulster people are not the ''Quisling Irish'' that Sean McBride so contemptuously labelled us. Now we are to be accorded respect as a separate people.a people whose consent is required if they are to merge with the Irish on this island. Such an enlightened outlook is still in a fragile,infant form and the threat of reversion to One Nation - One Fatherland thinking is very real. Indeed,traditional nationalism/republicanism still holds sway not only among the Provisional IRA but also in important sections of constitutional nationalism in Eire. It is therefore critical that the Ulster people keep a clear vision of their identity and that we articulate that vision accurately in our dialogue with our fellow-countrymen. To do less risks our opponents miscalling our responses to their overtues,where 'persuasion' may be percieved as 'coercion' and resisted.
Fom my Baptist perspective Iam concerned that the 'For God' section of this motto has been misconstrued by many to imply that our struggle for national rights is of itself a spiritual conflict - as if the people of Ulster are identical to the people of God,that Ulster's cause and the gospel are the same. The truth is that every nation stands in the same relationship with God as does Ulster. All nations exist at his discretion and are answerable to His judgment for their unrighteous acts. The liberties we claim for Ulster belong to every nation,and it is our duty to make every effort to reach a just settlement with our neighbours who claim Irish nationality. 'For God' can only properly mean that we as a people acknowledge God's sovereign rule over men,and that our regard for Ulster is not in opposition to His rights to our supreme love. 'For God and Ulster' is,therefore,to me a valid expression of my role as a Christian citizen.
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 16:43:22 GMT
It's about time that we started seeing some more insight articles into unionism here. Cheers WASP. And how do our unionist members on here feel about those articles? Would you agree with what is said or have a different outlook on things?
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Apr 22, 2008 16:49:55 GMT
if you want insight then you have to ask the right questions
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Post by earl on Apr 22, 2008 17:00:10 GMT
Shouldn't have to ask. I'll post up insights into republicanism and life down south without being asked. It's an open forum, and we're all here to learn. It should be a given that any insights into your own community would be welcomed. If you didn't know this then why are you here?
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Apr 22, 2008 17:10:05 GMT
wrong answer
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Post by Shades40 on Apr 22, 2008 23:30:39 GMT
He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness...... lives in the widerness?
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Post by earl on Apr 23, 2008 13:44:49 GMT
Don't you mean wrong question?  |
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Post by Jim on Apr 29, 2008 15:21:02 GMT
Why is religion so deeply inbedded into unionist thinking? The unionist leader atm is a reverant of his own church, our own Wasp is highly religious, and I know a few others at work who are born again christians and are most definitely unionist. I've never encountered it in republicanism to the same extent and most of us cant be bothered with religion so i find it quite odd.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 29, 2008 18:33:36 GMT
Good question Jim. Since the reformation as you know Portestants were at the receiving end of the Catholic church, infact present day doctrine condemns us to hell and those who are in a mixed marriage are to be punished if there children are not brought up as Catholic. When you mix the churchs control over Ireland, the hatred of Protestants and the fact modern day cannon law has the murder of a Portestant as not murder at all if done by a Catholic in the name of religion. Mix these things along with the fact the Portestant faith mainly stays within biblical teachings rather than what the church rules as the truth.
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Sadly Jim having any strenght in faith leaves you vulnerable and my faith or rather trying to live my life as I should do has more downs than ups. Often you would think I have no faith but I do bounce back but not as often or for as long as I sshould. But I do have great faith in my beliefs that seldom falters, talking about them is like a pick up. I am certainly not your stereotype highly religious person.
I know two entire families who left the Catholic faith and became Portestants. OvER half of them are now what we would call Christians.
Basically most if not all Catholics have been brought upto go by what the church says, not being allowed to question it too much, many don't read or even own a bible but they will go through the various prayers their church has taught them. I once asked my sis-inlaw why did she believe the things that she did and apart from saying that was what they were brought up with she could not find an answer as to why she held these beliefs and practices. She has never read a bible yet believes her taking part in the sacrements gets her into heaven. That couldn't be further from the truth and is totally unbiblical.
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Post by earl on Apr 30, 2008 9:24:11 GMT
WASP, Are you summing up all the animosity between the two Christian churches on this island is all down to tight control by the RC Church and the laws within on Protestantism?
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Post by Shades40 on Apr 30, 2008 14:50:24 GMT
My dad who was a Protestant disowned his Protestant community because of the raw sectarianism that they happily displayed and he never looked back, religion=bollocks in NI.
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Post by bearhunter on Apr 30, 2008 20:03:18 GMT
Bloody hell WASP, are you aware how arrogant you sound?
Good question Jim. Since the reformation as you know Portestants were at the receiving end of the Catholic church,
So can you give me figures for how many Protestants were lkilled by Catholics during the reformation as opposed to vice versa? You'll find that in England certainly more Catholiics were killed than Protestants.
I know two entire families who left the Catholic faith and became Portestants. OvER half of them are now what we would call Christians.
So Catholics aren't Christian?
Basically most if not all Catholics have been brought upto go by what the church says, not being allowed to question it too much, many don't read or even own a bible but they will go through the various prayers their church has taught them. I once asked my sis-inlaw why did she believe the things that she did and apart from saying that was what they were brought up with she could not find an answer as to why she held these beliefs and practices. She has never read a bible yet believes her taking part in the sacrements gets her into heaven. That couldn't be further from the truth and is totally unbiblical.
Bullshit. every Catholic I know has a Bible in the house. As for the second point, again can I ask you if you realise how fucking arrogant you sound? You're right so everyone who disagrees with you must be wrong? Because it says so in your big book? Fuck me, this is medieval thinking.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 30, 2008 20:52:23 GMT
Nope
Is this a lie or is it the truth? According to their canon law, a heretic is to be purged by the following steps:
Excommunication, Proscription from all offices, ecclesiastical or civil,--from all public duties and private rights, Confiscation of all their goods. And the last punishment is death sometimes by the sword, more commonly by fire.
The catholic church has directly and indirectly killed millions throughout the world. England stank with the smell of the burning flesh of the martyrs, John Wycliffe, openly attacked the sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church (whereby sinners could buy forgiveness from the Church - a nice way of earning even more money for the Church's coffers), arguing forgiveness could not be bought for a few coins. Wycliffe also translated the Bible into English and delivered his sermons in English, rather than the Latin used by the Catholics.
You have took what I said and took a different meaning, I said over half of them are what we would call Christians, by that I mean they are very religious. I did not mean or even think of saying what you thought I did. But to answer your question I don't believe many Catholics are Christians at all in the sameway many Protestants who claim to be Christian are not Christians. Just pretend ones.
No it is not bullshit, many of those that I know don't have a bible and let's not forget Catholics were not allowed to own a bible or interpretate it and that was the catholic church's rules not anyone elses.
I am wrong on many things so I don't understand your point. How do you come to that assertion when I am stating what the bible teaches not what I teach or say? Many of their practices are unbiblical, so if you disagree take it up with the bible.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 30, 2008 21:07:42 GMT
Oh I forgot this.
According to Decreti, pars ii. causa xxiii. quaest v. can. xlvii:
"Those are not to be accounted homicides who, fired with zeal for Mother Church, may have killed excommunicated persons."
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