Our kids and how they behave

[An Fear Dubh]

I can only speak from my own experiences and I do not think the figures exist that we can examine to see how many youths are anti-social. And we need to be careful how we define anti-social. Is anti-social hanging around in groups? As people can be fearful of such groups but in reality they pose no threat but fear and not knowing if they are a threat or not can lead to them being wrongly labeled.

I am not going to go into the arguement of back in the old days kids were seen and not heard. My belief based on my experiences in Twinbrook and Poleglass is that it is a minority that are anti-social and that most either lack money or facilities. Or the fascilities close early and have rules that maybe are good rules but do not help youths of a certain type.

I spoke before of some statistics relating to car crime - a quarter of all cars stolen in the north end up in Poleglass/Twinbrook. Now these are not all because the thief came from the local area but because of a sub-culture of 'joyriding' and car racing shows that exist there. I do believe the police have questions to answer regarding these statistics and the stratigies the police used in these areas. Would such a sub-culture be allowed to develop in the Malone Road area of Belfast, or would the police have nipped it at an early stage. I do now believe that the police have accepted this and have adopted a different approach.

I accept the point Bilk that anti-social elements are the dominant element now amoung our estranged youth. But I feel that this was allowed to develop for various reasons, some of them politically tactical reasons. Let us just accept that the issue exists and needs to be tackled.

Look I am no wooly social worker who wants to hug unemployed youths or sit down to tea and biscuits with them. I can not explain your childhood Bilk, that is a personal issue for you. But dysfunctional familes are fairly common in working class areas, but the facilities and help groups and resources do not exist in these areas. Nor would the problem come to the knowledge of such authorities for various reasons. I have a problem also labeling the youth as being 'socially excluded', but after years of dealing with such youths, this conclusion has been forced upon me. I have taken many a child home to their parents after they have been caught red-handed in anti-social behaviour. I know the various responses. And in some cases the parents are to blame for the child. So we have generations of people who have been 'socially excluded' (no job, no prospects, no education,.....) And the child has learnt this and has fallen into the same pit as his parents did. So what is our response, longer jail periods and lock the parents up as well. Why not put them down like rabid dogs?

We need to break the cycle, offer different routes, engage those that are socially excluded, give them the tools and the resources to change. The ones that are hardened and beyond change need to be dealt with, so that their actions are socially unacceptable and while they continue they become socially unacceptable.

[Bilk]

Again AFD I agree with a lot that you say, and I do not put all of the blame for what I am complaining about on the kids. It is society I am blaming, if you go back and read my original post, you will see I am coming from a socialist mindset. While I was angry about the behaviour of the parents of the kids in the Sophie Langford case, again not blaming the kids themselves, but the behaviour of the parents. How are kids going to learn right from wrong when even their parents don't seem to care.
My real anger was reserved for the anchor woman who was covering the news item about poor Sophie. She in her wisdom (or perhaps one of her bosses) thought, that how many millions BA and BAA were making was more important than what the police officer had to say, that is what sticks in my crawl. In this era of the worlds history, finances (we worship the god of money) are the be all and end all of everything. We are the blame of our childrens upbringing, we teach them to covet everything.

[An Fear Dubh]

I agree with your anger at the news coverage. But the anchor woman was told by her producer what to do. Yes parents do have a responsibility but some parents lack the resources and the tools (ie money and education).
I feel that LL had developed the topic beyond that initial and justified anger and we could build this into a good brain storm discussion on an issue where everyone has a view and the lines that we usually follow of green and orange would be blurred. And this would reflect into the forum into a positive vibe and other bile filled debates that are obvious point scoring would feel this positive vibe and wither slightly.
So I want you to put the bits you do not agree with under the microscope and highlight the weaknesses.

[Louisiana Lady]

I agree that there is more media hype than in the past due to technology that can put us at the scene almost as it happens because the media is aware that sensationalism sells.
There were instances in the past that were so atrocious that they are still talked of today as in the case of Lizzie Borden. If this were had been broadcast like terrible events are today, I’m sure there would have been “copy-cat killers” running around with an axe. But I believe it is more than just the fact that we have instant news. I think we have more shocking things happening with our children than ever before to make the news. We have a new generation of school shootings, children killing their parents and grandparents and other family members, games of animal cruelty and killings of strangers for initiation into gangs.
I know that there are instances where parents have raised several children in the same environment with the same rules of discipline and all of them turn out to be the best of citizens except for one who goes astray in some way. There are also some that are raised in the worse possible circumstances (as in the true-life story of a child called “It”), and yet, overcome their deplorable treatment to become a caring, compassionate human being.
Environment does play a huge role in a child’s upbringing and some children may get exposed to an environment along the way other than the one the parents have set in place. Children are impressionable and there may be outside influences that make an impact on them that change there thinking. If parents don’t set boundaries and set examples for their children then some of these young minds might be easily swayed. The fact is that many children are exposed to too much in their early impressionable years and in a home that does not give them a stable environment to draw from this can be a dangerous contributing factor.
A child learning respect can help overcome many problems that are going to arise. Having respect for parents, teachers, friends and strangers and for other’s property could alleviate a lot of little problems before they become big ones

[Bilk]

Apr 12, 2008 1:05:27 GMT Louisiana Lady said:

I agree that there is more media hype than in the past due to technology that can put us at the scene almost as it happens because the media is aware that sensationalism sells.
There were instances in the past that were so atrocious that they are still talked of today as in the case of Lizzie Borden. If this were had been broadcast like terrible events are today, I’m sure there would have been “copy-cat killers” running around with an axe. But I believe it is more than just the fact that we have instant news. I think we have more shocking things happening with our children than ever before to make the news. We have a new generation of school shootings, children killing their parents and grandparents and other family members, games of animal cruelty and killings of strangers for initiation into gangs.
I know that there are instances where parents have raised several children in the same environment with the same rules of discipline and all of them turn out to be the best of citizens except for one who goes astray in some way. There are also some that are raised in the worse possible circumstances (as in the true-life story of a child called “It”), and yet, overcome their deplorable treatment to become a caring, compassionate human being.
Environment does play a huge role in a child’s upbringing and some children may get exposed to an environment along the way other than the one the parents have set in place. Children are impressionable and there may be outside influences that make an impact on them that change there thinking. If parents don’t set boundaries and set examples for their children then some of these young minds might be easily swayed. The fact is that many children are exposed to too much in their early impressionable years and in a home that does not give them a stable environment to draw from this can be a dangerous contributing factor.
A child learning respect can help overcome many problems that are going to arise. Having respect for parents, teachers, friends and strangers and for other’s property could alleviate a lot of little problems before they become big ones

Totally agree LL, That is the point I was making earlier about my mother not allowing me to call a neighbour by her first name. You are being taught respect. Worse still I have been in homes of people when a child would come in and rant "That owl bitch down the street is nothing but a moan", the mother immediately responded with "Why? what has she done now?". Now you see, whether the childs discription of the neighbour was correct or not, several of my mother's rules would have been broken in that one line from the child. He swore, he was rude about a neighbour and he didn't refer to her by her title of Mrs whatever. My mother would have dealt with that first, her response would have been swift. "How dare you speak like that about one of our neighbours and swear in this house, I will listen to what you have to say when you get a civil tounge in your head and learned some manners, and not until. "But mum" would've been my response, "I will deal with it when I discover who it is you are talking about, because from that rant I do not know"
In my case it would probably have been the neighbour shouted at me for playing football outside her door, and I would've got a cuff round the ear for doing just that. Two lessons I would've learnt from that and they were both respect.

AFD while I am all for providing all members of our society with the tools and the money they need to get through life without hardship. It does not cost any money, nor does it need a great deal of education, to teach a child respect. All it takes is for you, the parent, to be respectful. As I related earlier, my mother raised seven children on her own, at a time when there was little or no welfare state. No one can teach me about poverty, I lived in it for most of my young life. I became a socialist because I believed wholeheartedly that no citezen of this country, or any other should be treated in that way. But the one thing I was taught was respect for others. My neighbours, my teachers, the police and others in authority. None of whom would be allowed to treat me baddly I can assure you. Had they done she would've come down on them like a ton of bricks. But that did not mean I was allowed to be disrespectful. That is what is lacking in our society today "respect".
Believe it or not it is only one small step from being allowed to treat your fellow man/woman with disrespect, to shooting your school teacher and half the class because you didn't do well at school.

[sandyrowglenman]

I read this and am filled with so many emotions. Anger, disgust, frustration.
As LL has pointed out, teenage violence is on the increase over here. People ask why and come up with various reasons, each valid. For me, the main reason is “Modern Liberalism”
Recently a bunch of young people (6 girls, 13-17. 1 boy 17. 1 21 year-old male) forced a 16 year-old girl into a car (kidnaping) drove her to the home of one of the girls relatives, and proceeded to beat the crap out of her. (assault & battery). All the while video taping it to post in on “You Tube” or some such place.
The video has been broadcast on TV. And a “defense lawyer” was asked as to what the punishment should be. The lawyer claimed that this was a “misdemeanor” Kidnaping, Assault, Misdemeanor!!!! You gotta be kidding.
This bleeding heart mentality prevails in most of those involved in todays so-called justice system. Recently, in Vermont, A child molester, guilty of repeated assault on a 5 year-old was give a couple of months by a liberal judge. The judge wanted him to be able to get therapy, which under the law, he would not have been eligible for had he received a harsher sentence. (He should have been hung by his balls and left hanging there.) You see, that’s the way we do things today. We don’t punish, we re-habilitate. Give me a freakin break!!!!
This is happening all over the country. Liberal judges are more and more imposing light sentences on child molesters, putting them back on the streets and placing even more children in danger..But, where’s the outrage from the media??? What we do hear is some “heart wrenching” story of how the poor perpetrator was abused as a child and so can’t really help himself. We should of course be “sympathetic” to the guy, and he does after all have rights. No mention of the child this F****in animal put through hell and scarred for life. What about their rights.
I could go on and on, but this subject just gets me too worked up.

[Bilk]

Apr 12, 2008 19:07:24 GMT sandyrowglenman said:

I read this and am filled with so many emotions. Anger, disgust, frustration.
As LL has pointed out, teenage violence is on the increase over here. People ask why and come up with various reasons, each valid. For me, the main reason is “Modern Liberalism”
Recently a bunch of young people (6 girls, 13-17. 1 boy 17. 1 21 year-old male) forced a 16 year-old girl into a car (kidnaping) drove her to the home of one of the girls relatives, and proceeded to beat the crap out of her. (assault & battery). All the while video taping it to post in on “You Tube” or some such place.
The video has been broadcast on TV. And a “defense lawyer” was asked as to what the punishment should be. The lawyer claimed that this was a “misdemeanor” Kidnaping, Assault, Misdemeanor!!!! You gotta be kidding.
This bleeding heart mentality prevails in most of those involved in todays so-called justice system. Recently, in Vermont, A child molester, guilty of repeated assault on a 5 year-old was give a couple of months by a liberal judge. The judge wanted him to be able to get therapy, which under the law, he would not have been eligible for had he received a harsher sentence. (He should have been hung by his balls and left hanging there.) You see, that’s the way we do things today. We don’t punish, we re-habilitate. Give me a freakin break!!!!
This is happening all over the country. Liberal judges are more and more imposing light sentences on child molesters, putting them back on the streets and placing even more children in danger..But, where’s the outrage from the media??? What we do hear is some “heart wrenching” story of how the poor perpetrator was abused as a child and so can’t really help himself. We should of course be “sympathetic” to the guy, and he does after all have rights. No mention of the child this F****in animal put through hell and scarred for life. What about their rights.
I could go on and on, but this subject just gets me too worked up.

I can fully understand your feelings of frustration and anger Sandy. I used to blame the problem on the "troubles" over hear. Kids seeing that violence goes unpunished and therefore going on to comit violence. That to an extent is true, but it goes deeper than that, it goes right to the heart of our justice system. And I see no problem in being a socialist and thinking like this. A socialist to me is not someone who has lost all humanity, and thinks only of the underdog. In many socialist minds the criminal is the underdog, and "there but for good fortune go I". Well not this socialist, this socialist believes that the rights of the victim are paramount. I really wonder sometimes how socialist thinking goes down this road, I became a socialist because of injustice, and to right injustice, not to perpetuate it. The dogooders in society today are most always those who see themselves as socialists. They have infiltrated the justice system to such an extent as to make it almost an irrelevence. Sneering criminals walk freely among us, while their victims cower in their homes for fear of once again becoming a victim to those same criminals. We protect the rights of those same criminals to do that, and ignore the rights of the victims. Todays criminals are younger and more violent than ever. It starts in the home at a very early age, it is manifested in a lack of respect. It is right at this time that it should be nipped in the bud. If not the child developes into a juvenile delinquint. Unfortuneately the laws on the under 17's is such that no one can touch them, by the time they attain the age of 17 they are all but hardened criminals. And we wonder why!

[Louisiana Lady]

When our youth commit acts of violence there appears to be much inconsistency in our judicial systems in regards to making children accountable for their actions. Arguments are made as to whether they should be tried as a child or an adult, and if they were emotionally mature enough at the time of the incident to comprehend the scope of their actions. In many cases, due to age, some are put on probation because of a lineate judge, lack of a facility, or due to psychological evaluations. If they are sentenced to an age appropriate correctional facility they are still released at the age of 21. What message (and power) does this give to our children?

And, Bilk, the world would be a better place if there were more parents like your Mother who obviously knew that in teaching you to respect others that you were learning the most important lesson ……….“self-respect”.

[An Fear Dubh]

The issue of anti-social behavior is a very complex one and it is not really possible to separate various aspects without giving other aspects consideration. I do not want to get drawn into picking out various crimes and saying one crime is of more importance than others and therefore needs a tougher response.

I come from a family where respect was required. But I also came from a family that encouraged independent thinking and while respect was to be given. It was also pointed out that respect was a two way street, and not something handed down as a right but something that was earned through ones actions. I also came from a family were manners and being socially polite was the only way to behave. Some seem to be confused over respect and polite manners. While a neighbour might have to be addressed in a polite manner and called Mrs .... and no back lip would be allowed. This does not mean that the same woman had my respect or if I had been falsely accused of anti-social behavior would it had stopped my mother from quietly making sure that Mrs ... knew she had got it wrong. It was not my place to verbally challenge the woman.

Respect must be taught but it is how we teach it. Do you teach respect through violence? There must be rules (laws) and punishment when the rules are breeched. But that should be the extreme point and last resort. And it is also an admission of failure, that we have failed to provide the proper role model. Yes I agree there is a lack of social politeness, being polite costs you nothing. But respect is not something we should expect but it is something we should be teaching through our actions.

If you admire and respect someone because of the way they have had past dealings or social interaction with them you are far less likely to harm or allow others to harm them. If you 'respect' someone simple because it has been decreed by authority, then you do not really respect them but are doing it because you have to.

Let us look at some of the mistakes of the past. 'Internment' now there are a number of reasons why it did not work and some of them are complex and political in nature but I am using this as a simplistic example. Firstly many of those 'interned' were not 'involved', or were the brothers, sons and fathers. What effect did internment have on the violence outside did it stop? Did support for ..... shrink or did it increase? As Setanta points out the US system should be an example to us that punishment alone does not work.

[Bilk]

Apr 14, 2008 10:40:59 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

The issue of anti-social behavior is a very complex one and it is not really possible to separate various aspects without giving other aspects consideration. I do not want to get drawn into picking out various crimes and saying one crime is of more importance than others and therefore needs a tougher response.

I come from a family where respect was required. But I also came from a family that encouraged independent thinking and while respect was to be given. It was also pointed out that respect was a two way street, and not something handed down as a right but something that was earned through ones actions. I also came from a family were manners and being socially polite was the only way to behave. Some seem to be confused over respect and polite manners. While a neighbour might have to be addressed in a polite manner and called Mrs .... and no back lip would be allowed. This does not mean that the same woman had my respect or if I had been falsely accused of anti-social behavior would it had stopped my mother from quietly making sure that Mrs ... knew she had got it wrong. It was not my place to verbally challenge the woman.

Respect must be taught but it is how we teach it. Do you teach respect through violence? There must be rules (laws) and punishment when the rules are breeched. But that should be the extreme point and last resort. And it is also an admission of failure, that we have failed to provide the proper role model. Yes I agree there is a lack of social politeness, being polite costs you nothing. But respect is not something we should expect but it is something we should be teaching through our actions.

If you admire and respect someone because of the way they have had past dealings or social interaction with them you are far less likely to harm or allow others to harm them. If you 'respect' someone simple because it has been decreed by authority, then you do not really respect them but are doing it because you have to.

Let us look at some of the mistakes of the past. 'Internment' now there are a number of reasons why it did not work and some of them are complex and political in nature but I am using this as a simplistic example. Firstly many of those 'interned' were not 'involved', or were the brothers, sons and fathers. What effect did internment have on the violence outside did it stop? Did support for ..... shrink or did it increase? As Setanta points out the US system should be an example to us that punishment alone does not work.

AFD I think we are discussing two different subjects here, you are arguing the present situation as it is. I just think it is too late now for the people you are talking about, they have gone through the system and come out the other end the people that they are. To me, and I know you will argue with this, the problem we have at the moment with young people running riot in our streets is incurable. It is like baking a cake then trying to unbake it. I am talking about the future and how to fix it, it is fixable. To do that we start teaching our kids respect.
Whether the woman I referred to above was respectful or not was not the first of my mothers worries. It was whether I had been respectful to her. That was what was important to her at that moment. But believe me, if the woman had been in the wrong she would have delt with her. But she would have dealt with her respectfully, not screaming and shouting like a fishwife. That is how I found most adults of the time were, they sorted out their differences respectfully, and children learned from that.
This is where the dogooders came in somewhere and changed all that. A child can do no wrong is their theory, and a parent is not responsible for how a child behaves is their stupid way of thinking. Nor is a parent given permission to punish a child as they see fit, the law prevents them.
All laws pertaining to children below the age of 17 have been removed, as too has the responsibility for the child been removed from the parent. Would you give that amount of latitude to a pup and expect it to grow up into a loveable dog? I don't think so, those stupid people who do usually wind up with a snarling piece of crap, that bites anything that moves, and it winds up having to be put down.
I think as regards this problem we have to take a step backwards, and remove all the wooly stupidity that has been put in place by dogooders. Like a lot of people say about the problems of Northern Ireland, we have to begin with the kids, in the hope the next generation become better adults. Like I said it's to late to unteach what's already been taught.

[Louisiana Lady]

No, you can’t force respect. It then no longer becomes respect……it becomes fear. How do we teach respect? EXAMPLE….EXAMPLE….EXAMPLE. Like I said before, children are impressionable. They learn what they live……then they live what they learn.
In Bilk’s case, his Mother was setting an example that an adult should be addressed respectfully. The lady had the “Title” of Mrs. and, as a child, if Bilk didn’t use this “Title” then he was considering himself on the same level and not maintaining an adult/child relationship as was important in those times. As for earning respect…..we can only be responsible for our own actions and not the actions of another, so that doesn’t mean we should compromise what is right.
Bilk, I loved the analogy of the dog! A dog learns to obey its master, and it can be taught in one of two ways. The dog can learn to obey from fear of punishment or it can learn from a desire to please and respect the authority of its master’s commands. Many of today’s children many be in the same circumstances and the later certainly sets the best example.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am looking at the past and viewing the present but my focus is looking to the future. By examining the past and present we can see where we have failed and what actions do not work. But it is pointless to hanker after bygone days and want to recreate them. The circumstances are different, the social emphasis and the desires of past societies are different, the things that drove those societies are different. The social and economic demands have changed.

To a certain extent I agree that for large numbers of anti-social elements it is too late. And re-education is pointless to a certain extent. But I have been active within my local community dealing with young people for about 30 years. I have noticed that while certain families seem more disposed to have generations of anti-social problems, they are a minority. And on the whole as anti-social youths become parents and adults they recognize that they do not want their children falling into the same traps that they did. These processes of education are slow, so that the youth you are dealing with quickly change and they become the pensioners and the vulnerable. But unless the whole community adopts the one approach the exercise is limited. But if I pull one youth from the pit and create a valued member of society then I have been successful. I will not give up on the youth or abandon my community to torture by anti-social elements.

Respect is taught by example, but what example has society taught todays youth? They have been given the example by various governments that war and state violence is acceptable even against ones own citizens. That peaceful working class unity for improved conditions is met by state violence (be this trade unions, or peaceful protest - and that is not just the civil rights in the north that had the political backdrop). Society has shown todays youth that by being respectful only means your concerns are more easily pushed aside. So any lesson of a parent is lost on the child as youth views that same parent either supporting state violence or being abused by it, either way the lesson is not one of respect for others.

I believe that if we in the north can have an input into how the police work we can move the emphasis away from the police being used in trade union disputes and other social confrontations. That in conjunction with the communities we can focus the police on the criminal minority and anti-social elements can be educated into a new direction. I too despair at the protection that some criminal elements get from the law and middle-class social workers who have no foundation in the realities and have gained their knowledge through an academic course. But on the whole those laws are to protect the innocent but are manipulated by the guilty. That is not a sound argument to throw away the law, but an argument to improve the law. Our law needs to be more flexible and to allow for a limited discretion. Allow the community beat police officer the room to make exceptions, and perhaps the leeway to administer a cuff around the head. The problem with the dog analogy is that humans are not dogs and should not be treated like dogs. A dog is a pack animal, humans are not. A dog is put down if it assaults (bites) are we saying the punishment for assault is death?

It is not a matter of unteaching, it is about providing an alternative route. I have always said that there is a minority that can not be saved and are too corrupted to be saved, they need to be isolated and if necessary dealt with by the law. I agree we begin with the kids but very quickly those kids become youths and then parents. Our new education needs to be directed at everyone in society regardless of age.

[Bilk]

Apr 15, 2008 8:58:34 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

I am looking at the past and viewing the present but my focus is looking to the future. By examining the past and present we can see where we have failed and what actions do not work. But it is pointless to hanker after bygone days and want to recreate them. The circumstances are different, the social emphasis and the desires of past societies are different, the things that drove those societies are different. The social and economic demands have changed.

To a certain extent I agree that for large numbers of anti-social elements it is too late. And re-education is pointless to a certain extent. But I have been active within my local community dealing with young people for about 30 years. I have noticed that while certain families seem more disposed to have generations of anti-social problems, they are a minority. And on the whole as anti-social youths become parents and adults they recognize that they do not want their children falling into the same traps that they did. These processes of education are slow, so that the youth you are dealing with quickly change and they become the pensioners and the vulnerable. But unless the whole community adopts the one approach the exercise is limited. But if I pull one youth from the pit and create a valued member of society then I have been successful. I will not give up on the youth or abandon my community to torture by anti-social elements.

Respect is taught by example, but what example has society taught todays youth? They have been given the example by various governments that war and state violence is acceptable even against ones own citizens. That peaceful working class unity for improved conditions is met by state violence (be this trade unions, or peaceful protest - and that is not just the civil rights in the north that had the political backdrop). Society has shown todays youth that by being respectful only means your concerns are more easily pushed aside. So any lesson of a parent is lost on the child as youth views that same parent either supporting state violence or being abused by it, either way the lesson is not one of respect for others.

I believe that if we in the north can have an input into how the police work we can move the emphasis away from the police being used in trade union disputes and other social confrontations. That in conjunction with the communities we can focus the police on the criminal minority and anti-social elements can be educated into a new direction. I too despair at the protection that some criminal elements get from the law and middle-class social workers who have no foundation in the realities and have gained their knowledge through an academic course. But on the whole those laws are to protect the innocent but are manipulated by the guilty. That is not a sound argument to throw away the law, but an argument to improve the law. Our law needs to be more flexible and to allow for a limited discretion. Allow the community beat police officer the room to make exceptions, and perhaps the leeway to administer a cuff around the head. The problem with the dog analogy is that humans are not dogs and should not be treated like dogs. A dog is a pack animal, humans are not. A dog is put down if it assaults (bites) are we saying the punishment for assault is death?

It is not a matter of unteaching, it is about providing an alternative route. I have always said that there is a minority that can not be saved and are too corrupted to be saved, they need to be isolated and if necessary dealt with by the law. I agree we begin with the kids but very quickly those kids become youths and then parents. Our new education needs to be directed at everyone in society regardless of age.

Ok there is an awful lot of this I agree with, and I realise in some of my posts, I was generalising a lot. But I was reacting to something that had been on a radio programe that hilighted some things in stark reality. Like the reaction of the parents, and the boys themselves in this case. Also the behaviour of the radio station, whether it was the fault of the anchor woman or the producer, it doesn't really matter. And I agree with you stongly on one point and perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. Many of todays socialists learned all they know about socialism in a university. That is what I was referring to when I said "dogooders who call themselves socialists". The vast majority of them come from middle class backgrounds. What could these people possibly know about poverty and the effects of it on the human psyche.
But I still believe that my original point was a valid one, and you have moved some way to agreeing with me. With your comment about the clip around the ear from the beat cop. Taking away all sanctions from children who misbehave is a recipe for disaster. We all learn, or we should learn through life, that every action has a reaction.
In the case of the young of today, there is no reaction to what a child does, the right for even a parent to chastise their own children has been taken away. It has been taken away by middle class dogooder socialists, whose children grew up in the midst of afluence and wealth. And even they have gone astray, with their form of rewarding the good and not punising the bad. That's all very well, you can reward the good up to a point. Again this is something I strongly believe. Our kids grow up in a "give me" world, where the words "no you can't have that" no longer exist. So many today believe "we are entitled", why is that? That is the reward culture coming out, nothing is too much for our little darlings. Christmas today is like all the Christmases I ever had rolled into one. Even poor working class people will put themselves in debt and danger to make sure little Johnny/Betty has that latest state of the art computer/play station etc. etc. Where does that lead? It leads to the day, usually around 17, when the thing they ask for is beyond your reach, even for your little darling, who you have rewarded for being good all their little lives. They want a car, because now they are old enough to drive. Who but the few can buy their son/daughter a car?
This bemused teenager, with his/her hormones runnig wild, heading for adulthood has heard those dreaded words for the first time. "No you can't have that". What does he she do, they go out and take someone elses, because they are "entitled", that's what they have grown up to believe.
Or failing that they stand around corners taking drugs or alcohol and kicking people to death because they have been deprived. They still believe even at 17 no one can touch them, and if they want something then they should have it. And if they don't get it, boy is the world going to be sorry.

[An Fear Dubh]

We have said that much that I am unsure what was your original valid point that I have closer to agreement with you on. I have always said that hardened anti-social elements need to be dealt with by the police. In the past I reluctantly supported other cruder and more violent methods of dealing with such anti-social elements, but recognized this was a short term measure that did not work beyond the initial punishment, as at that time using the police was not an option available to me.

I recognize that on rare occasions a cuff around the head is more effective and long term productive than other methods but it needs to be judged in each case. Unfortunately even in the police we have individuals who would use such powers in a manipulative way as to bend the rules. So it is near impossible to give leeway to use judgment if it is open abuse, and abused. And we have seen ctv footage where abuse has occurred. Does these 'lapses' or abuse of judgment calls justify maintaining a system which allows judgment calls or should the innocent be protected, even if this limits good policing?

I agree that the demands on parents have grown. And I know many disadvantaged families that use all the means available to them to provide Johnny/Betty with everything at Christmas. Is this reward culture for good behavior and not punishing bad behavior? I am not sure, but it does mean that they love their children. And that is a good role model to teach. Does it teach them to steal? I do not think it does. Myself I did stretch things for my kids until they no longer believed in Santa. But once they pushed the issue of Santa their Christmas list was given financial restraints. As the eldest child in my family I even remember a meager Christmas on the knowledge that money was tight and the little ones had to get, and I knew the reality. But that did not teach me theft and drug abuse or even alcohol abuse.

[Louisiana Lady]

AFD, I don’t believe that anyone is hankering after bygone days and wants to recreate them. I just see the importance of continuing something that should remain a learned experience from generation to generation. My grandmother was the perfect example of a respectful person both showing respect to others and being respected. She in turn set the example that I followed and I, in turn, instilled the value of this in my four daughters. From their very youngest years I was complimented on their good behavior (even by strangers) and today they are young women to be proud of who show me the greatest of respect, so I would not say this is living in bygone days but applied to daily lives in the present.
Yes circumstances are different now, but does this mean we should “go with the flow” and throw teaching our children proper behavior out the window? Why should basic family values change?
I agree that society teaches other lessons to our children, but does that mean we should let go of their hand and let them get absorbed by it and not show them there is an option and they can take a stand against what is wrong? If we as parents set the pattern, then what society teaches will be questioned by our children and not readily accepted. I don’t agree that a lesson of a parent is lost. I said we teach by example, so if, like you say, that same parent is supporting state violence then they aren’t setting much of an example, are they? Also, if they are abused by violence, their reaction to it can also be a teaching tool.
Now, I must add…..I am most aware that humans are not dogs and certainly should never be treated as such, and I believe you have the intelligence to know that is not what I meant.