Willie Frazer put's his big sectarian foot in it.

[leeside]

WASP wrote:

Irish represents those born in the republic

Maybe to you, WASP, but Im pretty sure hundreds of thousands of people who live in Northern Ireland would disagree with you. For them, being Irish does not stop at the border.

[Wasp]

Leeside I agree and I accept that, but IMO that is an opinion or an aspiration etc. Jim Carson was Irish and I have no problem with Irish Unionists, there are a number of them in the republic. I see anyone born in N.I as British by birth but if some do not see it that way then I have no problem with that or there identity.

At the end of the day N.I is British, is under British law, crown forces, welfare etc etc. N.I is a different country than the republic.

[Blue Angel]

I maybe be Northern Irish but that is totally seperate from Irish - Let's just think about that sentence for a moment shall.....

[Wasp]

It is totally seperate from Irish. Take the word American and then north American/south American which is totally different. South Korea/North Korea etc.

The country which I was born and live in is Northern Ireland so it can be shortened to Northern Irish. The country in which Irish people were born and live in is Ireland which is a different country than N.Ireland.

[Blue Angel]

does that include all the irish people born in living in the six counties wasp or me for example. I only lived in the republic for some parts of my childhood and was born in London but I have never viewed myself as British at any point.

South Korea and North Korea was a bad choice there - if you look at the history of those two states it will become obvious why....
As to North and South America - that is in reference to continents - obviously general speaking when we say north american we tend to think of those from the united states but you could equally well canadians who are of course subjects of the british crown. And South America covers a host of countries.

Ultimately though that is semantic wrangling - there is no denying that Northern Ireland is both Irish and British culturually to return to a more relevant point.

[Jim]

wasp said:

Leeside I agree and I accept that, but IMO that is an opinion or an aspiration etc. Jim Carson was Irish and I have no problem with Irish Unionists, there are a number of them in the republic. I see anyone born in N.I as British by birth but if some do not see it that way then I have no problem with that or there identity.

At the end of the day N.I is British, is under British law, crown forces, welfare etc etc. N.I is a different country than the republic.

Thats not what I'm getting at. The UK is made up of four "nations", or to put it better, 3 nations and one state. NI is considered by the Government to be the successor of Ireland and its acknowleged its only part of the Irish nation, so your Government sees you, me, your family and your friends, for all intents and purposes as Irish within the Union. Thats my point, what you consider yourself and what I consider myself is another matter, but thats why they put the Irish language on the passport.

Its ironic, actually, the British Government putting the Irish language on their passport since it was them that outlawed it and killed it originally.

[Wasp]

Did they put it on the passport Jim??

BA IMO you are English and British as you were born in London but you can claim to be Irish if that is your choice. If I was born in Dublin then I would be 100% Irish but that doesn't mean I cannot claim to be British if that is what I identify myself with. By birth you are English and British but it is your right not to view yourself as English/British.

I think the country you are born in then that is your identity, within the UK you can be born in one of its named countries but still belong to the British identity which gives people the choice to be one or both as they still fall under being British.

I have a friend who was born abroad, he has a British passport but by birth he still German as this was the country he was born and lived in for a while.

[Jim]

Thats what this is about, isnt it? That pleb Frazer complaining about Irish on a British passport.

[earl]

jim said:

Thats what this is about, isnt it? That pleb Frazer complaining about Irish on a British passport.

I think you better go back and read the start of the thread Jimbo! It's about wee Willie getting it wrong. He went off on a biggoted rant about NI citizens being treated as lesser Britons because he thought there was Irish on NI passports alone. In reality, it was Scots Gaelic and Welsh on the passport. Seems like for some like him, there is only a very narrow definition of Britishness which must be obeyed by the numbers.

[Blue Angel]

Willie is like many extreme nationalists of whatever ilk, British, Irish or 'Ulster' nationalists - he is threatened by any perceived differences and has to cast one group as been 'lesser' to feel safe and smug. Okay, WASP I'm British, so that makes James Connolly Scottish, Eamon De Valera american, Maud Gonne English as was Sean Mac Stiofain. Oh yeah and Erskine Childers to.

And yeah Willie's definition of Britishness is non-exsistent as was pointed out elsewhere in the thread. I invite him over to London where I shall take him to places like Southall where the local train station has the station name in English and Punjabi and the displays for train times are also in both. I am sure Willie would collapse at these signs of non-Britishness

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southall_railway_station

[Wasp]

BA you do not class yourself as English/British and I have no prblem with whatever identity you choose, thats your business and your choice. All I am saying is that if you are born in England then you are English especially if you live there for a while. Same for everyone no matter where they are born.

Do you disagree in all seriousness as I am curious why?

[Blue Angel]

yes i do - i find it a silly assumption - you are confusing someone's legal status with their culturual identity -not many irish people born in the north of ireland would claim to be british also but by your definition they would be. I cited the figures above as an example of people who are all regarded as Irish but who were all born outside Ireland and in some cases lived in their countries of birth for many years, such as Childers and Connolly. Ireland is like Israel in reverse in effect instead of people coming into a reformed country they were flowing forth via massives waves of emigration - but their is a similarity between the Jewish and Irish peoples in that both form a diaspora and while some would contend I am a 'plastic' paddy it is an attitude I have only run across amongst the most narrow-minded. Those who in an Irish context like Wille Frazer here does in a British context seek to limit their definition of nationhood to arbitary and narrow boundaries.

And getting back to Frazer seeing as Irish is an indigenous language of the British Isles (and that is just a simple fact no getting away from that....) what is the real concern Frazer has here - the more of this man's remarks and rhetoric i read the more bigotry and hate i feel bubbling beneath the surface constantly about to break out at any moment.

I

[Jim]

earl said:

jim said:

Thats what this is about, isnt it? That pleb Frazer complaining about Irish on a British passport.

I think you better go back and read the start of the thread Jimbo! It's about wee Willie getting it wrong. He went off on a biggoted rant about NI citizens being treated as lesser Britons because he thought there was Irish on NI passports alone. In reality, it was Scots Gaelic and Welsh on the passport. Seems like for some like him, there is only a very narrow definition of Britishness which must be obeyed by the numbers.

Must have read it wrong then, I only read the article and then the second pages onward, but still, Gaidhlig isnt much different than Irish, its from the same branch of languages and surely if Frazer is anti-Irish language then he must be anti-Scottish Gaidhlig too, since the languages have more links between Ireland and Scotland being celtic than they do with any notion of "Britain".

[earl]

I'm not going to argue that your definition of nationality is wrong WASP, because you are more than welcome to think that way. I will however disagree with it. I think that your definition is certainly logical, but probably a bit too narrow in focus. Where you are born can play a major part in your nationality, but not always the case. Some people would conclude that your passport defines your nationality, which I'd agree with to a certain extent. Personally, I believe that your nationality is a mixture of where you were born, your passport and most importantly, what cultural input you received as you grew up within your community, but especially from your family.