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Post by Jim on Jan 25, 2008 17:05:54 GMT
The nature of the UK is regional so thats why we have it and others dont. England wont have other languages (that I know of) because their one and only language is English, they're hardly likely to have French.
Irish has been accepted by the British Government, so they are for once honouring a committment. Nothing Frazer can say about that. Instead, he's a nutter who hates anything Irish and makes the rest of you looking like fools. I'd be mortified if we had someone like that so outspoken and claiming to represent victims.
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Post by earl on Jan 25, 2008 17:30:36 GMT
If its the case as been stated here he has made a bollocks of himself. My Passport is British and as such i expect all the language to be in English. If me living in N.Ireland meant that my British passport came with Irish writing on it but people living in England, Wales, Scotland etc didn't have this on theirs then i'd be fcuked off. He's jumped the gun and it looks like he's made himself look silly and his comments to go way over the top. If however other languages of the British Isles are being put on all passports nowadays then i'm grand with it and even if there was Irish on there. I'm not anti irish in anyway but would feel annoyed if N.Irish british passports had Irish but the rest of the UK did. Willie would be quite entitled to express this view but he goes OTT Can't say fairer than that! And what do you think about NI being excluded from having either of it's indigenous languages on the current passport? I don't want to simply push on the Irish angle, Ulster Scots ain't there either. And whilst you may not have any direct affinity with either indigenous language, like the majority of Scots and Welsh to theirs, you are excluded from the passport linguistically/culturally speaking. |
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Post by earl on Jan 25, 2008 17:51:36 GMT
well that's fair enough. What about a part of your own identity also? Even Ulster Scots? You are okay with other home nations having their mark on it. Why not have parity?
I'm probably still not getting exactly what you are saying here. I know that there are different dialects of Irish, I was only listening to an adult learning tape yesterday (a work colleague, who is Indian, is trying to learn it) that had the Ulster dialect of Irish on it, and whilst the words were spelt the same, the pronunciation in a lot of cases was completely different to the Connaught Irish I learned at school. But something tells me that's not what you mean!
I wasn't just talking about Irish (and I never mentioned anything about tri-colours, I'm treating this as a purely internal UK thing). I said that the UK has 5 indigenous languages. 2 of these are based in NI, Ulster-Scots and Irish. Neither of these are on the passport. There is no parity there between NI and the other home nations.
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Post by Wasp on Jan 25, 2008 18:37:20 GMT
TBH it doesn't bother me, while I do not want to offend anyone, I only heard the Ulster-Scots thing in the last decade, probably the same for people speaking Irish. I am happy with my identiy as in British and my language as in English. AT THE sametime I wouldn't have a problem if there was a list of languages that people could tick that they want on their passport along with English. That way those who want Irish/Ulster-scots on it as well can have just that and those who don't, don't. No it's not what I mean and I probably am confusing you. Ok perhaps a better way to explain would be this. When I am in the republic I usually bring some gifts back, not all the time because I go down several times a year at least. I have brought back rock with the tri-colour wrapped on the outside and the rock has the tri-colour colours through it, I have brought a few gifts that have Irish all over it, some could be Irish language, flag,or alot of green on it. I bought my first wolfetones record in Donegal as well. Now if I walked into a shop that sold those things here (as in things with the tri-colour on them) I would walk out in disgust, yet I would buy them and have done so in the republic. Am I any clearer now as I genuinely want to try to explain to you?  My answer above hopefully explains what I mean Earl. Irish is not part of British culture, it is part of Irelands. Am I making any sense. |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jan 25, 2008 20:00:24 GMT
actually just as a wee aside the UK actually has six indigenous langauges if you include Cornish which has begun to make a bit of a resurgence. My colleague at work is Cornish and we were talking about this and he pointed out a lot of people in Cornwall have been sending their kids to either schools that teach in Cornish and and English or in extreme cases schools that teach purely in Cornish. Then again there was Manx which is sadly extinct now although I can't recall right now if technically the Isle of Man is part of the UK or not.
Wasp and Harry's points I can take on board although I don't agree with all they've said but at least they've managed to explain themselves with a rant and that's the key difference between them and Frazer who would be an emberassment to any cause he allied himself with.
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Post by Jim on Jan 25, 2008 20:13:17 GMT
isle of man is a crown dependancy but its treated as if its part of the uk unofficially.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jan 25, 2008 20:27:29 GMT
thanks Jim - just couldn't remember for sure - one of the perils of my advanced age.
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Post by bearhunter on Jan 29, 2008 19:38:37 GMT
"Irish is not part of British culture, it is part of Irelands."
Yes, and NI is part of Ireland. Irish culture does not stop at the border, WASP and as you keep telling everyone, anything north of the border is British, so that includes the Irish language as it exists in NI. If you insist on having English only on British passports, you are denying the Scottish and Welsh elements of the UK (or more properly Britain) their heritage and culture.
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Post by Wasp on Jan 29, 2008 21:30:40 GMT
BH re-read my post for goodness sake. Did I insist on having English only passports or deny the Scottish and Welsh elements of the UKetc???
Infact incase you missed parts of my posts which is becoming a bit of a habit with you, here is some of what I wrote.
'AT THE sametime I wouldn't have a problem if there was a list of languages that people could tick that they want on their passport along with English. That way those who want Irish/Ulster-scots on it as well can have just that and those who don't, don't.'
Where is me denying anyone anything here and where is me insisting on English only passports??
'considering my passport is British so I wouldn't want any language on it besides those that belong within British culture. I wouldn't want anything but English but would accept Welsh etc as they are part of the British identity.'
Again where is the non-acceptance of other languages within British culture such as the Welsh language?
Apart from that N.Ireland is a seperate country from the republic and Ireland as a whole nation ceased to exist after partition.
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Post by Jim on Jan 30, 2008 1:08:19 GMT
Having two sets of passports for those that want a bit of irish or just english isnt realistic and would cost too much money. NI as part of the union has half its population identifying with irish culture and also lots of unionists that identify with irish culture within the union, so why should they be denied by what i see their native language of origin on the very document that makes them a citizen of a state? Willie fazers Britain doesn't exist, maybe he should take a trip to Oxford Road in Manchester and get on a bus and listen to how many languages are being spoken at any one time. Ireland did not cease to exist as a nation, it only ceased to exist as a single political entity. The notion of an Irish nation is as real as its ever been, culture goes beyond borders, languages go beyond borders and citizenship in our case goes beyond the border. As Asquith said himself, " You can no more split Ireland into two parts than you can split England or Scotland into parts. Ireland is a nation; not two nations, but one nation. There are few cases in history, and, as a student of history in a humble way, I myself know of none, of a nationality at once so distinct, so persistent, and so assimilative as the Irish." (i actually used that in my coursework on the partition on monday  ) |
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Post by bearhunter on Jan 30, 2008 19:18:48 GMT
'considering my passport is British so I wouldn't want any language on it besides those that belong within British culture. I wouldn't want anything but English but would accept Welsh etc as they are part of the British identity.'Again where is the non-acceptance of other languages within British culture such as the Welsh language? Apart from that N.Ireland is a seperate country from the republic and Ireland as a whole nation ceased to exist after partition. Fair enough, however my point on the Irish language stands. It is an indigenous language in part of the UK, so why shouldn't it be represented on the passport? |
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Post by Wasp on Jan 30, 2008 20:35:45 GMT
Would you not agree with the fact that those who use the language and are active in promoting it etc would call themselves Irish and do not in anyway class theselves remotely British? Would you agree that the Irish language is part of Irish culture?
So IMO why would it be on a British passport? I honestly cannot see how much more expensive it would be to let people choose what goes on their passport along with English. Wouldn't it also be fair to say that the people who want the Irish language promoted etc and speak Irish would have Irish passports anyway.
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Post by Jim on Jan 30, 2008 21:07:46 GMT
Would you not agree with the fact that those who use the language and are active in promoting it etc would call themselves Irish and do not in anyway class theselves remotely British? Would you agree that the Irish language is part of Irish culture? So IMO why would it be on a British passport? I honestly cannot see how much more expensive it would be to let people choose what goes on their passport along with English. Wouldn't it also be fair to say that the people who want the Irish language promoted etc and speak Irish would have Irish passports anyway. A fair amount of loyalist paramilitaries learnt Irish in the maze, they would surely call themselves British since they fought killed and went to jail for it. WASP, you know as much as I do that the UK is not a country, its a union of countries, NI as a state is Irish within the Union that makes up Britain, thats how the monarch sees it, the Govt sees it and parliament see it, the only people who call themselves purely "british" with no mention of their constituent country are the irish unionists. It would be on a British passport because its the native language of part of Britain. |
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Post by Wasp on Jan 30, 2008 21:15:56 GMT
Jim that is where we differ, I am not an Irish Unionist, in no way shape or form am I Irish, I maybe be Northern Irish but that is totally seperate from Irish as I was born within the UK and Irish represents those born in the republic. But I accept that many born within the UK do not call themselves British and I have no problem with the identity they choose, but why do some have a problem with my identity and others like me?
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Post by Jim on Jan 30, 2008 21:54:44 GMT
Well then you must be unique, even unionists like Carson called themselves Irish.
For all purposes you are considered Irish by the Government. I'm not saying you are because I'm the same with another nationality but you at least should be able to see why the government puts Irish on passports issued to people in Northern Ireland. Britain isnt a nation its a union.
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