LAWSUIT BY PROTESTANT SCHOOLS

[Wasp]

Madam, - As a Catholic who has devoted a lifetime to teaching in
English Catholic and Anglican schools, I want to express my wholehearted
support for the four Protestant schools in Dublin that have begun legal
proceedings against the Department of Education in support of their
right to appoint teaching staff.In 16 years as a secondary school principal I was involved along with
governors in hundreds of staff appointments and it was always part of
the selection process to question prospective staff on their commitment
to the ethos of the schools concerned. It was always understood by
employers and prospective employees that teachers in these and other
schools were sympathetic and not antagonistic to their school's specific
ethos.
I hope that all of those who support parental rights in respect of
school choice will support Dublin's Protestants in defence of their
schools. - Yours, etc,
ALAN WHELAN, Carnahone, Beaufort, Co Kerry.

Madam, - As a member of the Church Of Ireland, I am shocked at the
latest undermining by the State of Protestants in the Republic. The
Government's proposed redeployment to Protestant schools who of teachers
do not adhere to the Protestant tradition epitomises the
institutionalised sectarianism that Protestants in the South still
encounter. For decades Protestant children have been turned away from
Catholic schools (in the same manner as the new immigrants), and have to
travel miles and sometimes counties to their nearest Protestant school.Their parents expect that teachers uphold their school's ethos .
Protestant Confirmation classes take place in secondary school. Would
Catholic parents be happy if Protestant teachers were preparing their
children for these religious rites? Would Catholic schools and Catholic
parents in the North be happy if the British Government redeployed
Protestant teachers to teach in their Catholic schools and teach
religion or history?
Is it the State's plan to no longer protect the ethos of minorities'
schools, and eventually to eradicate Protestant schools? -Yours, etc,
SIOBHÁN NÍ GHIOLLA RUA, River Valley Heights, Swords, Co Dublin.

[Jim]

Religious schools should be disbanded.

[earl]

For decades Protestant children have been turned away from
Catholic schools (in the same manner as the new immigrants)

This is very misleading. You'd think that a Protestant was never allowed access to a Catholic school. Those Protestants I went to school with must have been lying about their religion.

I agree with the other chaps though. I'd rather have no religious educational institutions and I blame past governments for sitting back and allowing the Catholic Church to have carte blanche in certain respects on the education system.

These letters don't state whether other schools have the right to appoint teaching staff. If they don't, then these Protestant schools are getting the exact same treatment as any other school. If they do, then I wholly support any legal action.

I found the second letter a bit hysterical. What the fcuk has a teachers religous alligence got to do with teaching history? It's the same syllabus. Once a teacher is good at his/her job, you'll find most parents won't care if the teacher is a scientologist!

I still haven't heard of a single case of human rights abuse being put forward to the EU human rights courts, despite Lord Laird saying he was going to do it. It's not like southern Protestants are being kept without passports so they can't go anywhere to tell anyone!

What's your view on on this WASP. You posted these letters up. What do you make of it all?

[Wasp]

First of all I welcome what you all have said especially Setanta's input. After our debate here on Plumtilla school I was told that this would never happen again and I was told all these things have stopped so there is not one thing that I can bring up or say about this type of thing in the republic. This proves different.

The first letter is particularly welcomed as it is from a Catholic who has dedicated her life to teaching. So in no way am I trying to suggest Irish = bigot or Catholic = bigot as this lady has proved different along with the gentleman below.

I find it sad but not that surprizing TBH. The Catholic church still has a say in education and this proves it. I am bitterly disappointed at the Irish gov. as I have stated many times before Unionism should welcome there stance and try to develop better relations with them. But this adds to the feeling that there are those whos aim is to bring Protestant schools to a close or at least make things as awkward as possible for them. Recently Catholic kids got from outside the area got preference over Protestant kids in the area of Plumtilla school and now this along with whatever else. There are those who try to paint Ireland as a place where everyone welcomes Protestants and they in no way are discriminated against, this proves different.

Earl you said the point was very misleading, when you add what happened at Plumtilla where a letter was provided as proof then it is not misleading at all. He did not say all Protestant children, he said Protestant children have been turned away. This is true, it has happened so it is in no way misleading.

You said about not hearing a single human rights abuse being put forward, well maybe they are trying a different channel, maybe because of how things are with some they might feel taking things to the EU will make things worse for them or maybe things are very difficult for them to do so. There can be a host of reasons but that doesn't mean there dispute is valid ONLY if they goto the EU.

[earl]

wasp said:

I find it sad but not that surprizing TBH. The Catholic church still has a say in education and this proves it.

They have input, considering that they run over 90% of all schools, but they have no say in what subjects and contents are available on the syllabus for junior and leaving certs.

But this adds to the feeling that there are those whos aim is to bring Protestant schools to a close or at least make things as awkward as possible for them.

Why? What purpose? Do you actually think that some governmental policies are religiously motivated?

Recently Catholic kids got from outside the area got preference over Protestant kids in the area of Plumtilla school and now this along with whatever else.

I'm not aware of this Plumtilla school incident, but if it's got overcrowding issues and it's a Catholic school, then of course it's going to take Catholics in before any other religion. The fault lies with the Irish government for not opening up enough state owned schools. This is laziness and bad planning more so than sectarianism.

There are those who try to paint Ireland as a place where everyone welcomes Protestants and they in no way are discriminated against, this proves different.

This proves that there are some Protestants that aren't too happy, so they've wrote a letter containing their opinion on a situation as they see it. I could get a mate to write you a letter to tell you he thinks everything is rosey. He's a Protestant, so as long as it's a letter of opinion written by a Protestant, you'll accept it as fact. I'll wait until I hear something a bit more official from a respected body on this issue.

Earl you said the point was very misleading, when you add what happened at Plumtilla where a letter was provided as proof then it is not misleading at all. He did not say all Protestant children, he said Protestant children have been turned away. This is true, it has happened so it is in no way misleading.

He said " For decades Protestant children have been turned away from Catholic schools", suggesting all Protestants. If he'd said. " For decades, some Protestant children have been turned away from Catholic schools", he'd have a point.

You said about not hearing a single human rights abuse being put forward, well maybe they are trying a different channel, maybe because of how things are with some they might feel taking things to the EU will make things worse for them or maybe things are very difficult for them to do so. There can be a host of reasons but that doesn't mean there dispute is valid ONLY if they goto the EU.

Ireland is a modern country. If any religion was being discriminated against, it would be plastered all over the TV, radio and newspapers. Guess what. There's nothing. Even Lord Laird who likes to kick up a fuss said he was going to the EU courts to report abuses. So how's that report going for him? I haven't heard anything since. Surely SOME Protestants down here would have jumped at the chance of someone going to the EU courts on their behalf. All it takes is an email to him to air their grievance and they can be sure that it'd be heard in Brussels. But we've heard nothing. Sure there are instences, just like any other country. But to try and spin that there's some 'old foe' agenda at work high up in the Irish establisment is ridiculous!

[Wasp]

Earl you seem very quick to jump to the defence of the Republic, can you not accept it may not be perfect? On plumtilla Catholics from outside the area were to get first preference over Protestants within the area, isn't that a genuine concern??

You wrote 'He's a Protestant, so as long as it's a letter of opinion written by a Protestant, you'll accept it as fact.'

You have this habit of disecting a post while ignoring other main points within it to help your arguement to keep the whiter than white republic.

I wrote 'The first letter is particularly welcomed as it is from a Catholic who has dedicated her life to teaching. So in no way am I trying to suggest Irish = bigot or Catholic = bigot as this lady has proved different along with the gentleman below.'

Please note that my main focus waS ON the Catholic lady and NOT the Protestant gentleman. So why do you dissect and suggest different???

Ireland may be a modern country but if something is not platered all over the tv then it may cause rise for concern. Is it a case that they do not want this highlighted incase the world sees the other side of the coin? Could it be that they want everyone to believe that EVERYONE in Ireland welcomes Protestants? These stories would make headline news up here if it was the other way around but because it involves Protestants it is hardly worth reporting on, which is all too often the case North and south of the border.

Why would Protestants down there jump at the chance of someone going to the EU? As I said maybe they want to deal with it as they feel appropriate and do not want to take the route taken all too often by republicans. Who knows perhaps you should ask those who are taking the lawsuit.

Isn't it strange that Plumtilla and this story is not headline news even though rte covered the plumtilla story? How many Irish papers took on the discrimination accusations and covered them openly and fairly???

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl you seem very quick to jump to the defence of the Republic, can you not accept it may not be perfect?

I've all but admitted it above when I said that there are instances. You are hinting at a government wide conspiracy to 'keep the Prod down'. With the high rate of Protestants amoung the higher echelons of the Irish law establishment, I'd say that the last thing a politician in this country wants to do is p!ss off a Protestant, as he/she could have a Protestant solicitor trying to clear their name infront of a Protestant judge in some form of tribunal!

On plumtilla Catholics from outside the area were to get first preference over Protestants within the area, isn't that a genuine concern??

If it's a Catholic school and those kids are coming from an area where there is no more room in their local school, then of course they're going to get in first. It would work the same for any other religious school in similar circumstances. I don't blame the Catholic church for this (for a change), I blame inadequate planning by the dept of education for not acting quickly enough to provide school places for everyone. For decades, the Irish government were content with letting the Catholic church do all the leg work in relation to the amount of schools available, and up until 15 years ago, that was ok, as there were very few other religions here in any kind of numbers. The amount of immigration into Ireland over those 15 years has not been replicated anywhere else. In that time, Irelands immigrant population has gone from a minute percentage of the overall population to nearly 15%! No other country in the EU has had such a seismic shift, and it has led to the problems in schooling that we are now seeing.

You have this habit of disecting a post while ignoring other main points within it to help your arguement

You mean like this? ;D

to keep the whiter than white republic.

I am one of the Republics biggest critics. It's just that I base my criticism mostly on facts and logic, rather than opinion, emotion and myth.

I wrote 'The first letter is particularly welcomed as it is from a Catholic who has dedicated her life to teaching. So in no way am I trying to suggest Irish = bigot or Catholic = bigot as this lady has proved different along with the gentleman below.'

Then explain what you think as to the kind of mindset required to make your following statement true:
this adds to the feeling that there are those whos aim is to bring Protestant schools to a close or at least make things as awkward as possible for them."
So what type of person would go out of there way to ensure that a certain religious group in our society was getting a hard time?

Please note that my main focus waS ON the Catholic lady and NOT the Protestant gentleman. So why do you dissect and suggest different???

Your main focus is on insinuating that the Irish government has some form of sinister plan to make life hard for Protestants. You've said as much! I don't care if it was even a pagan who wrote the letter.

Ireland may be a modern country but if something is not platered all over the tv then it may cause rise for concern. Is it a case that they do not want this highlighted incase the world sees the other side of the coin?

Ireland is a modern, open and globalised country. As I've already pointed out, we've a population of around 15% new Irish now living here. We have 1000's of multi-nationals based here. It would be nigh on impossible to try and keep a state-wide dark secret. We've several independent news sources that the government has no control over whatsoever. Sir Tony is the head of one of the media groups in charge of guiding the direction of the states media. He's a West-Brit who would have a field day if anything like you are hinting at was happening, adn the Irish government would have absolutely no way of stopping his papers from printing such things. There isn't a millitary junta in control down here.

Could it be that they want everyone to believe that EVERYONE in Ireland welcomes Protestants?

What's this welcoming Protestants talk? Protestants have been on this island since the time of Henry VIII and have been a vital ingredient in the formation of our state. They don't need to be welcomed. They're already here!

These stories would make headline news up here if it was the other way around but because it involves Protestants it is hardly worth reporting on, which is all too often the case North and south of the border.

Of course it'd be headlines in NI. But that says more about your part of the island than mine. Religion is still a hot topic up there. Sure ArchBishop Brady becoming a cardinal barely made the press down here, and back in the day, there would have been nearly a national holiday to celebrate such news! You've seen that C4 program highlighting the plight of Britains Jews in certain areas of Britain. Are those stories making the national headlines every day? No they're not. Does that mean that there is a secret conspiracy at work within the British state to make life difficult for Jews? No it doesn't. And the same logic applies to this issue here.

Why would Protestants down there jump at the chance of someone going to the EU?

If the picture you are trying to paint was true, then I'm sure that any avenue open to an opressed people would be welcomed. This hasn't happend despite the opportunity being available. This would suggest that Lord Laird and your conspiracy are simply based on Unionist myth, rather than any actual discourse with the Protestants of the south.

As I said maybe they want to deal with it as they feel appropriate and do not want to take the route taken all too often by republicans.

Ehh, WASP, the social structure of the ROI is radically different to NI. There isn't a divide between Republicans and Protestants, as very often, they're one and the same. Anyone who supports our current system of governance is a de facto Republican, and I haven't seen anything from any religious group which suggests that they have a problem with this. If the Irish government was genuinely trying to keep such an issue secret, then why would the aggrieved Protestant population of Ireland assist in maintaining this scilence through using a low profile method of sorting this out? You're not making sense WASP. You have a conclusion and you're trying to mould what little information you have on this matter to suit that conclusion.

Who knows perhaps you should ask those who are taking the lawsuit.

No WASP, I think you're the one who needs help with finding out more information. I know the factors which have led to this situation occuring, and I've kindly highlighted them for you. Now it's up to you to either believe me, or to contiune to fashion a few loose instances into a national conspiracy against certain members of my fellow countrymen.

Isn't it strange that Plumtilla and this story is not headline news even though rte covered the plumtilla story? How many Irish papers took on the discrimination accusations and covered them openly and fairly???

The overcrowding of schools and it's consequences were headline news when the schools reformed for first term. It was all over the radio, tv and newspapers. The Irish media are like any other media in the world and will then jump to the next hot topic of the day without batting an eyelid.

What you are trying to do here WASP is to take a genuine issue that effects everyone in the south, no matter what religion they're into, and turn it into another chapter of a war which has long ceased this side of the border. This issue is caused from a sudden increase in Irelands population, and not some secret conspiracy against Protestants.
I'm not happy about kids getting turned away, no matter what religion they're from. If this issue is not resolved, it will lead to segregation and ghettoisation similar to what has happened in certain areas of Britian. I want this country to learn from Britians mistakes and to formalise a plan which allows for as much integration as possible. A community grows out of it's school. Children making friends with each other, parents meeting other parents when they're collecting their children. It is crucial that our schools are as secular as possible to allow for this natural mingling of differnt peoples. This issue has to be resolved by the Irish government and not the Catholic church. And in fairness to the CC, they have always allowed other faiths to attend their schools when there was room.
And as Setanta has pointed out with the letters, the people are looking for further polarisation, and not integration. I'm against faith schools, but if Catholic schools can pick their teachers, then so should Protestant ones. However, none of us know if this is the case. If the issue highlighted here is the same in every other school, then they are being treated like everyone else.

[Jim]

Why should the state even allow religious schools in the first place? Honestly, if I was in government on either part of the border (or both ) I'd completely disband them. I'd be hated, but it needs to be done. Education is not about what religion you are, its about making you think for yourself, something that conflicts with religion.

[Wasp]

WASP, the letters are in protest at non-Protestant Teachers being appointed to Protestant Schools. SIOBHÁN NÍ GHIOLLA RUA says that Protestants were turned away for decades but I had Protestants (Jehovas are Protestant right?) in my school. Miss NÍ GHIOLLA RUA doesn't gve an example to back her claims.

I would not say that Jehovas are Portestants. Why does the lady have to give an example to back her claims? I can't answer for her though.

You are , rightly, annoyed that Catholic Children got places ahead of Immigrant Protestant children in a school with a Catholic Ethos due to overcrowding. If the places were available then the other children would have been admitted.

Setanta Catholic kids from outside the area got preference over Protestant kids within the area regardless of overcrowding or anyother reason. The schools ethos should not affect the rights of local kids to an education.

New non-demoniational schools are opening all the time to aliviate this over crowding.

Glad to hear it.

I agree with you 100% WASP that there should be no preferential treatment for anyone based on religion or any other criteria. If a child is of age they should be admitted to the school.

Absolutely.

But these letters that you posted WASP are about wanting preferential treatment for Protestant Teachers over other religous denominations.
I am 100% against that as well.

Fair enough but most schools have a Catholic ethos so why should Protestant schools not be afforded the same? It is daft to expect a Protestant to teach and prepare children for communion, confession etc etc?

I believe religion is private and a matter for yourself to be practiced at home or at church but it has no place in any state institute be it a hospital , school or an Garda.

I agree with you here.

[Wasp]

Earl I am not trying to paint any picture or insinuate anything. On plumtilla the priest denied all the accusations on rte, he said it was lies. But a letter was produced to prove he infact was lying. So if it was as simple as you suggest then why did the priest lie, why did he say this never happened?

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl I am not trying to paint any picture or insinuate anything. On plumtilla the priest denied all the accusations on rte, he said it was lies. But a letter was produced to prove he infact was lying. So if it was as simple as you suggest then why did the priest lie, why did he say this never happened?

Then explain this sentence:
"this adds to the feeling that there are those whos aim is to bring Protestant schools to a close or at least make things as awkward as possible for them."
Now you've gone from one post in describing the governments actions as sinister in a general case, to talking about a priest in one of the schools which is a specific case. I can't speak for this priest. I'm not in full possesion of all the facts. From looking at this issue from the information to hand, it doesn't look good for that preist.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm having a go at you for the sake of it on this thread. Your basic principle which you argue here about a schools ethos not affecting a kids education is something I whole heartly agree with. I'm not a fan of the current system in place regards schooling and I fully endorse the process of making sure that our schools are secular. I don't agree with children being discriminated against because of religion, and any faith-based school can do this.

What you need to understand is the complexity of this situation and the factors which are making it happen.

• population explosion
  
• the ROI has now got the youngest population in the EU. This as occured in the space of 15 years.
  
• The traditional system in place was in the most case adequate (although IMHO, not ideal).
  
• An increase in the immigrant population to 15% (and that's known immigrants. It could be as high as 20%. 1/5 of the population not born on this island!)
  

These are facts. Feeling that the Irish government is trying to make life hard for Protestants is opinion. It's opinion based on an Ireland which hasn't existed since Dev's time.

[Wasp]

Earl I said 'there are those', that does not mean the complete government or every Irish Catholic. I also said that in no way am I saying Irish = bigot or Catholic = bigot as the lady who wrote the letter proves. You can't get much fairer than that from me.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl I said 'there are those', that does not mean the complete government or every Irish Catholic. I also said that in no way am I saying Irish = bigot or Catholic = bigot as the lady who wrote the letter proves. You can't get much fairer than that from me.

There are those who think that the earth is flat, doesn't mean it is. Well tell me WASP, what do you think, nevermind 'those'.
Do you accept what myself and Setanta are saying here, and if not, please tell us what you believe and why.

[Wasp]

I think I have already answered that by giving my views on it and commenting on Setanta's welcomed input. While I was giving my opinion I said there are those etc, that is my opinion of some and that is what I think of some .

So I have told you what I think.