Garvaghy Residents Dragging Their Feet

[Blue Angel]

i think we should be careful of invoking kosovo or former yugoslavia either as comparision points -while the atititudes and mindsets have some similarity the scale of atrocities there makes what either side did in ireland pale by comparision.

[Blue Angel]

i will expand a bit on the above - i don't think we should minimize what whent on in ireland either but i think very emotive comparisions can be unhelpful. For example mary mcaleeses well publicized nazi comparision was an example of that as are unionist examples that go on about the fascist nazi aligned free state. They all are examples of Godwin's law in example, e.g. the minute someone invokes the spectre of Nazism as a comparision point common sense goes out the window. I think invoking Kosov or similar is likely to lead to similar results in any debate.

[bearhunter]

Good point BA. The Kosovo comparison is, I think, odious. The destruction of OO halls is a mindless, wanton occurrence that diminishes everyone in Ireland. Regardless of anyone's opinion of the OO, it is a part of Irish culture, not just Unionist culture and the loss of it would be as saddening to me as the loss of any other cultural artifact. Not to say that I'm a cheerleader for the OO, far from it, but the thoughtless ignorance of those chavs who burn the halls is sickening. No doubt they justify their gormless actions by claiming it as a blow struck for Mother Ireland, regardless of the fact that the OO is as Irish as the GAA and more Irish than the Catholic Church. Anyway, to get back to Kosovo, the differences are glaringly obvious: while I hate to see the halls being destroyed or damaged, at least it is only bricks and mortar being damaged, as opposed to human life, as happened with such appalling, systematic ferocity and frequency in Kosovo.

[Shades40]

I like the picture Mr WASP, resigned to the dustbin of history ;D You see WASP as Loyalists continue to beat Nationalists for daring to go near the town centre at the weekend while the police look on and how the OO have treated them over the years then I dare say Nationalists are in no hurry to do business with the OO so THEY can have their march. It's all a bit played out now and I don't take much interest it but I do have a wee giggle watching the OO shouting their demands to march after all the crap Drumcree has caused.

[Wasp]

Shades the poor down trodden Catholics are the only people inN.Ireland to be attacked etc blah blah. Cut the onesided fantasy crap. The violence in Portadown is not just caused by Protestants/loyalists etc, Catholics/republicans are also guilty. During parades have you ever saw the violence caused by republicans or do you only recognize and notice loyalist violence?

Now is it a fact that the residents demanded face to face talks? Did they say when the OO accepts this they will meet without hesitation etc etc etc?

Whta the fuck are they doing now? Probably waiting on another excuse.

[Wasp]

I think setanta the most important part of that line is "re-affirming the lodge's willingness to enter into direct dialogu" Now that is the important part or are you just trying to continue to look for problems with the OO?

[Shades40]

WASP where the hell did I say "the poor down trodden Catholics are the only people in N.Ireland to be attacked etc blah blah. Cut the one sided fantasy crap"?
Yes it does come from both sides but how many times have you heard of Protestants getting beatings (sometimes to death) in the town centre while the police look on?
I think each resident is being consulted on what the next move should be (some fear attack if they enter the town for talks) few thousand residents so this will take a while, 2020?

[Wasp]

Maybe some loyalists feel if they cannot walk the Garvaghy road, some of the residents shouldn't be allowed to walk around the town. Sick logic, but it is logic that all sides use. Many areas are nogo areas for Protestants and many are no go areas for Catholics.

Would those openly involved in violence against nationalists be safe to walk in the middle of a largely nationalsit town?? Same goes for those walking into Portadown unfortunately.

[Wasp]

I don't know whether or not those attakced were involved in violence against Unionists, maybe they were, I don't know. That wasn't my point.

Several times in my life I have seen the police do fuck all while a serious assault took place, one of those times was in London and I reported it to the ambulance drivers then the police. The rest happened here and one of those occasions I was arrested because of the inexcusable behaviour of some of the police officers involved.

The way this thread is being worded is that it was because they werew nationalists that the psni done nothing. The police don't know right away in many occasions whethr or not an attack is sectarian, whether or not the victim is Catholic or Portestant etc.

If the police did sit and watch then they have to be condemned and reprimanded but that doesn't mean they done nothing because they were nationalists that were attacked.

So what is it when people are arrested when a Catholic is assaulted, does this mean Catholic assault = sectarian attack and vice versa? I already told you before that I defended a sinn fein councillors son from an attack, the would be attackers were Catholics so what type of attack was that? If they were Portestant does that automatically mean the attack was sectarian?

[Jim]

The police are incompetant in the first place.

[earl]

I'm going to back WASP up of sorts here in a general case. I know that there have been some reports of Gardaí down here doing F.A. when it comes to certain street violence. They want to bring in pepper spray and tasers to deal with these incidents. They also claim that if they got involved, they stand a chance of being brought infront of the obudsman on some kinda charges. Of course, they're only killing two birds with one stone with this excuse. Still happens though.

[Wasp]

Setanta my points were not throw away comments, they were valid points and examples. When you live up here you get used to thousands of such examples. BTW how many people are actually convicted of assault compared to the amount of assaults? Because someone has never been charged with assault does not mean that they were never involved in an assault, it doesn't equate innocence.

BTW that goes for everywhere not just Portadown.

[Shades40]

Well WASP I hope you watched the CTV footage on UTV live tonight where it clearly shows the police sitting watching a large group of Loyalists attacking smokers outside a bar in Woodhouse st, a Loyalist then hits a youth over the head with a bottle then stabs him with it, then it shows a Catholic youth being beat on the ground then a Loyalist jumps on his head and finally the same police in the land rover drive past the scene again after Nationalists plead with them for help.

UTV live

[Wasp]

Absolutely disgusting and the officers involved should be kicked off the force. But are you saying that the reason the officers sat and done nothing was because it was Catholics that were attacked or is it a case of it could have been anyone and some are using the religious/victim card to promote their own agenda?

Do those responsible represent the entire loyalist community including the whole of the OO?

[Blue Angel]

obviously not WASP and I would not claim for one moment they did but i do not think we can brush of the PSNI's obvious incompetence here so easily as saying people are playing the religous card.