bigotry not just a rangers problem

[Wasp]

Celtic FC apologists 'need to look at themselves'

Professor Graham Walker of Queen's University Belfast feels there are double standards operating for Old Firm fans and challenges Celtic apologists to re-examine their stereotypes of Rangers and Celtic Fans.
In a new book, Its Rangers for me, he argues a number of facts and incidents relating to Celtic Fans and Irish culture are not adequately taken on board when presenting violence, sectarianism, racism and homophobia as mainly Protestant traits;-


* Upset Celtic fans have previously attacked the homes of referees, opposition players and even chairmen such as Hugh Dallas, Jorg Albertz, Nacho Novo, John Yorkston.


* Voluntary Scottish immigration to Ireland began long before the Plantation and many Scots suffered just as much under English Penal Laws as the Irish did. Celtic Minded author Des Dillon wrongly oversimplifies the matter by stating "Protestants were sent from Scotland over to Ireland causing segregation and bigotry".


* He reminds pro-Celtic authors that Celtic fans in 1988 "staged Scottish football's worst display of racist bigotry" when they threw bananas at black Rangers player Mark Walters.


* One Celtic FC writer accused Scottish Protestants of being homophobic but Walker points out the Protestant Church of Scotland takes a quite liberal view of the matter while Roman Catholic Cardinal Winning labelled homosexuals as "perverted".


* Pro-Celtic author Patricia Ferns expressed anger at being asked not to sing pro-IRA songs such as 'The Boys of the Old Brigade by Celtic officials.


* Irish nationalism has strong ties with Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism; The IRA collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War; Sinn Fein founder Arthur Griffith wrote in 1913 that "no Irish Nationalist should regard a negro as his equal" and pro-Celtic authors should also read up on the history of anti-Semitism in Ireland.


* The Irish media "widely reported" how the crowds who attacked a parade of IRA victims in Dublin in February 2006 frequently sported Celtic shirts, prompting Irish popular music magazine, Hot Press, to refer to the Celtic fans as "deeply prejudiced and sectarian" and "as close as we have to... the British National Party".


* He accuses Celtic FC apolgist-writers of ignoring research of academics like Steve Bruce who finds
extensive Protestant-Catholic integration, with almost half the marriages involving Catholics under 35 which take place in Scotland being mixed.


*He asks why pro-Celtic FC authors do not mention that a high profile Celtic player was reported for spitting on a Rangers supporters' scarf during an Old Firm game which ended with a "gratuitous and inflammatory display of defiance" on the part of the player and his manager?


* Celtic fans reserve their worst abuse for Catholic players who go to play for Rangers, namely Mo Johnston, Neil McCann and Chris Burke. "The Celtic fans condemnation of the so-called 'treachery' of these players betrays their own profound sectarianism."


* In contrast, he notes that Scottish Catholic have players been readily accepted by Rangers fans, and asks if this really supports the stereotype of Rangers as bigoted and racist?

[Republic]

wasp said:

* Irish nationalism has strong ties with Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism; The IRA collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War; Sinn Fein founder Arthur Griffith wrote in 1913 that "no Irish Nationalist should regard a negro as his equal" and pro-Celtic authors should also read up on the history of anti-Semitism in Ireland.

Both clubs have their problems.
Labelling one as worse than the other is pointless I feel. Neither one of them is perfect and they should focus on resolving their problems. Unfortunately both clubs have a lot of idiots following them.

I would like to comment on the quoted part of the above article, as it is simply distorting and twisting things.

Irish nationalism does not, and never had, strong ties with nazism.
Irish republicanism had loose links with nazism, that much is true. Not all nationalists, and not strong ties.

The point about racism and anti-semitism is a distortion, as if Griffith was a lone madman in the early twentieth century possessing racist and anti-semitic views.
Both views would have been widely held by most europeans, the British ruling classes being one of the most racist groups I can think of.
But they were acceptable views of the time. To judge them by our standards is futile.

It is unfair to condemn Griffith and Irish nationalists, yet not to say a word about their British or european counterparts who possessed the same views.

Either judge them all, or none at all. It is distorting things to be selective in our judgements.

[Republic]

Here is something I stole from another site!!!

In the 1860s, the debate among scientists about the relationship of humans to animals prompted British racists to make frequent comparisons between Irish people, Black people and apes. The Cambridge historian Charles Kingsley wrote to his wife from Ireland in 1860: "I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country...to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours."

The British historian Edward Freeman visited the United States in 1881. His obituary states that "he gloried in the Germanic origin of the English nation." On his return from America, he wrote: "This would be a grand land if only every Irishman would kill a Negro, and be hanged for it. I find this sentiment generally approved - sometimes with the qualification that they want Irish and Negroes for servants, not being able to get any other." (19.)

"SCIENTIFIC" RACISM
Although their empire was acquired by military force and a divide and conquer strategy, the British attributed their success to Anglo-Saxon superiority. This old idea was brought up to date through pseudo-scientific theories of race.

Nineteenth century theorists divided humanity into "races" on the basis of external physical features. These "races" were said to have inherited differences not only of physique, but also of character. These "differnces" allowed the races to be placed in a heirarchy. Needless to say, the Teutons, who included the Anglo-Saxons, were placed at the top. Black people, especially "Hottentots" were at the bottom, with Celts (Irish) and Jews somewhere in between.

Anthropologists went around measuring people's skulls, and assigning them to different "races" on the basis of such factors as how far their jaws protruded. Celts and others were said to have more "primitive" features than Anglo-Saxons.

The physician John Beddoe invented the "index of nigrescence" a formula to identify the racial components of a given people. The Anglo-Saxon's "refined" features also came with a "superior" character. They were said to be industrious, thoughtful, clean, law-abiding and emotionally restrained, while the characters of the various colonized peoples were said to be the very opposite.

In 1850 the anatomist Robert Knox described the Celtic character as "Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous and uncertain: look to Ireland..." He drew the following conclusion:

"As a Saxon, I abhor all dynasties, monarchies and bayonet governments, but this latter seems to be the only one suitable for the Celtic man."

Now there are some republicans who would jump on this as a symbol of British oppression etc etc, and use it as an excuse for rebellion etc.

That is not what I am aiming for.

It is to show that we can all be selective in our use of history.

To read either of the above articles alone would give the reader the impression that either Irish people or British people were crazy anti-semites and racists.
I dont think that is the case at all.

[bearhunter]

* He reminds pro-Celtic authors that Celtic fans in 1988 "staged Scottish football's worst display of racist bigotry" when they threw bananas at black Rangers player Mark Walters.


Without wishing to descend into outright whataboutery, I'd like to suggest that Rangers fans giving Nazi salutes in Tel Aviv is at least as bad as throwing bananas at a player. However, I'll never take a book about either team seriously unless it casts an equal curse on both houses.

[Jim]

Aye, wasp, okay.

[Jim]

* Irish nationalism has strong ties with Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism; The IRA collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War; Sinn Fein founder Arthur Griffith wrote in 1913 that "no Irish Nationalist should regard a negro as his equal" and pro-Celtic authors should also read up on the history of anti-Semitism in Ireland.

What type of shite is this? are we going to go into this again? Irish nationalism has nothing to do with nazism, I'm not a nazi. Arthur Griffiths views where nearly 100 years ago, maybe we should look at the modern links of Rangers and Chelsea with Combat 18.

a lot more fucking recent than arthur griffith.

[Wasp]

Jim I don't know why you showed that disgusting picture and then said aye wasp okay??? I posted the article after hearing about it on the radio the other morning and on this I agree with BH and I know many many fans were disgusted with these alledged 'red hand' salutes.

But do you also see the Isreali flag in the picture being proudly displayed?

Anyway here is some more of the article.

ABUSE
There is a clear double standard in operation for Rangers fans, he argues: "Celtic fans mouthing abuse such as 'Orange b******s' is regarded as acceptably political or 'a bit of craic' while Rangers fans supposedly deal in a repertoire of straightforward bigotry and racism."

The book has chapters written by some 20 contributors including academics, intellectuals, journalists, politicians, players and fans.
Internationally acclaimed Belfast playwright Gary Mitchell also writes a chapter, as does Ulsterman Gordon Smith.


A Scotsman and lifelong Rangers supporter, Professor Walker's book, co-edited with Ronnie Esplin, is understood to be the first serious analysis of Rangers Football Club and its place in society.

And it will undoubtedly be seen as a response to the similarly provocative Celtic Minded, two pro-Celtic FC volumes from numerous contributors, edited by Joe Bradley.


Professor Walker writes extensively about the contributors to these pro-Celtic FC volumes in the new book, arguing that they have wrongly made out that sectarianism in Scotland is a mainly Protestant problem.

STEREOTYPE
And he also challenges the authors on their stereotyping of Irish Protestants in Scotland as racist, violent and homophobic, citing examples of such behaviour as clearly existing within Irish Catholic culture.

"For many Rangers fans it is their club and the popular associations it has historically held which are increasingly marginalised and traduced in contemporary Scotland," he writes. "A sense of Scottishness which draws on Protestant religious identity is now decidedly at a discount, and anyone attempting to advertise such an identity is likely to be dismissed as a bigot."


Celtic FC apologists are still caricaturing almost extinct Protestant culture of the "Wee Frees" on television and "are quite simply not interested in the realities of Protestantism as a faith", he says. "They wish to collapse these varieties and the whole range of Protestant opinion from fundamentalist to liberal into a usable stereotype."

The Celtic Minded line of argument about Celtic fans having "to keep their heads down" on account of their "unacceptable" identity is "bewildering" he holds. "When has a support as raucous and 'in yer face' as Celtic's ever kept its head down?"


VICTIMS
Many Celtic Minded authors display both ignorance and sectarianism in their insistence that it is only Celtic fans have been the victims of Old Firm-related violence, he holds, and many of them seem unperturbed about songs and chants which celebrate IRA atrocities at Enniskillen, Teebane, Kingsmills, the Shankill Road, La Mon, and Darkley.

Writer Patricia Ferns in particular, he says, defends the IRA slogan 'Tiocfaidh ar la' ( 'Our Day Will Come' ) on the grounds
that it refers to footballing success.


"So, if Rangers fans argue that the use of 'No Surrender' is simply an injunction to the team not to give up, we should expect to be taken at face value by the media and our opponents? Aye right!" he responds. Such authors make it clear the Irishness which they are most concerned to celebrate "is in fact that of the Republican armed struggle."

Any segregation between Protestants and Catholics that does exist in Scotland, he says, has largely been at the behest of the Catholic Church with its rigid stance on schooling; Celtic FC apologists are either unaware or choose to ignore the fact that half the marriages involving under 35 Catholics in Scotland are mixed.

So Setanta please explain why it is so full of bollox? Or do you think only rangers fans are capable of such wrongdoings???

[Wasp]

Also The most controversial offering to the book was that by Gordon Smith, the chief executive of the SFA, who claimed there was "an agenda against Rangers".

[bearhunter]

G Smith's having a laugh isn't he? Was he told to say that at his last Goatfucker's Lodge meeting?

[Wasp]

bearhunter said:

G Smith's having a laugh isn't he? Was he told to say that at his last Goatfucker's Lodge meeting?

Bit nasty and harsh there BH. Correct me if I am wrong but you are equating the words orange lodge with the word goatfuckers lodge which is rather insulting considering you said on anopther thread about poisonous posts. Unless of course I have misunderstood what you meant by using the word goatfuckers.

[bearhunter]

Not the Orange, WASP, the Masons. I thought that was obvious from the use of Goatfucker. Unless it is used for the OO in NI, I've never heard it said about anyone but the Masons.

[Jim]

Jim I don't know why you showed that disgusting picture and then said aye wasp okay??? I posted the article after hearing about it on the radio the other morning and on this I agree with BH and I know many many fans were disgusted with these alledged 'red hand' salutes.

But do you also see the Isreali flag in the picture being proudly displayed?

There are many more like it if you want to see them.

My point wasnt to make out that Celtic arent bigoted.

I also see hebrew writing, saying that it took place in Tel aviv. I think a sieg heil salute is a lot more powerful than showing an israeli flag.

[Wasp]

bearhunter said:

Not the Orange, WASP, the Masons. I thought that was obvious from the use of Goatfucker. Unless it is used for the OO in NI, I've never heard it said about anyone but the Masons.

Have you never heard of riding the goat concerning the OO?

Jim I have already debated with loyalists on this so called 'red hand salute'. Some maybe had a point which could have been believed but in general I didn't buy it. I think it was disgusting. Both rangers and celtic have there fair sahre of morons, both are guilty of blatant sectarianism and the list goes on.

But I would have to add that I do agree with some of what this man is saying and the media seems to be more interested when it is a Celtic player or supporter than when it is a Rangers palyer or supporter.

[Jim]

But what exactly is the point of this fellas arguement?

* Upset Celtic fans have previously attacked the homes of referees, opposition players and even chairmen such as Hugh Dallas, Jorg Albertz, Nacho Novo, John Yorkston.

-Most firms have done this at one point, the Ultras go farther especially with chairmen they dont like.


* He reminds pro-Celtic authors that Celtic fans in 1988 "staged Scottish football's worst display of racist bigotry" when they threw bananas at black Rangers player Mark Walters.

-This happens a lot more than you think with most clubs, its not just something to do with Celtic. Go to ay Manchester United match and you'll hear them do monkey noises when a black fella gets the ball.


* One Celtic FC writer accused Scottish Protestants of being homophobic but Walker points out the Protestant Church of Scotland takes a quite liberal view of the matter while Roman Catholic Cardinal Winning labelled homosexuals as "perverted".

-Celtic does not automatically equal Catholic.

* Pro-Celtic author Patricia Ferns expressed anger at being asked not to sing pro-IRA songs such as 'The Boys of the Old Brigade by Celtic officials.

-What is secterian and what isnt secterian? Celtic fans have been scorned for singing the Irish national anthem at one point.

* Irish nationalism has strong ties with Nazism, racism and anti-Semitism; The IRA collaborated with the Nazis in the Second World War; Sinn Fein founder Arthur Griffith wrote in 1913 that "no Irish Nationalist should regard a negro as his equal" and pro-Celtic authors should also read up on the history of anti-Semitism in Ireland.

-What happened in 1913 has no bearings on what is happening today, maybe we should look at the links between Rangers and Combat 18 and White power organisations/bands. Do we want to go that far?

* The Irish media "widely reported" how the crowds who attacked a parade of IRA victims in Dublin in February 2006 frequently sported Celtic shirts, prompting Irish popular music magazine, Hot Press, to refer to the Celtic fans as "deeply prejudiced and sectarian" and "as close as we have to... the British National Party".

-We've debated this before too, the parade was hardly going to get any less of a reaction, what did you expect to happen? Hardly something similar to the British national party.

* He accuses Celtic FC apolgist-writers of ignoring research of academics like Steve Bruce who finds
extensive Protestant-Catholic integration, with almost half the marriages involving Catholics under 35 which take place in Scotland being mixed.

-What has this got to do with anything?

*He asks why pro-Celtic FC authors do not mention that a high profile Celtic player was reported for spitting on a Rangers supporters' scarf during an Old Firm game which ended with a "gratuitous and inflammatory display of defiance" on the part of the player and his manager?

-Rivalries happen, go to any local derby match in England and you'll probably get worse. Man City and Man United, Liverpool and Everton, could go on.


* Celtic fans reserve their worst abuse for Catholic players who go to play for Rangers, namely Mo Johnston, Neil McCann and Chris Burke. "The Celtic fans condemnation of the so-called 'treachery' of these players betrays their own profound sectarianism."

-And what? I'd shout at a City player if they went on to play for United, its a rivalry.

* In contrast, he notes that Scottish Catholic have players been readily accepted by Rangers fans, and asks if this really supports the stereotype of Rangers as bigoted and racist?

-Does he note about the heirarchy of Rangers admitting they had an unwritten rule of signing catholic players the majority of the time? Ofcourse not.

[bearhunter]

WASP, no I have never that phrase about the OO. Only from Scottish mates about the Masons.