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Post by Blue Angel on Oct 1, 2007 22:43:38 GMT
as i have said before this is a matter of perspective and i can understand why unionist might form that assumption but a closer look at history will show the church on the whole was not all that sympathetic to republicanism generally. The church has certainly celebrated nationalist figures once time has coated them with a patina of respectability but in their own lifetimes it has often castigated them, witness it's excommunicating IRA men en masse during the War of Independence or criticisim of the IRB and Fenians. Some republicans were devout Catholics but a minority I would say, for even Cathal Brugha (who never joined the IRB because he was oppossed to secret societies as they ran counter to church teaching) there are a host of other figures who were nominally Catholic and even Brugha was not from what I know of him a bigot. There HAVE been bigoted republicans and hiding them away would be dishonest but I do not think they represent a majority of republicans.
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Post by Jim on Oct 1, 2007 23:28:11 GMT
I'd go further and say any sympathy from the catholic church came from individual priests, not the church itself.
There where a lot of individual priests throughout the island that where sympathetic to republicans, but thats like saying protestant churches are backing the UVF because some ministers have stood side to side with figures in the past. Its largely not true.
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Post by Jim on Oct 2, 2007 15:55:22 GMT
My mam use to do that too, use to give me a big nip on the arm when I was arsing around and not listening. Hated church.
Dont know any republicans either that go to mass, Last two times in 7 odd years I think, both funerals, one for my granny and one for my best mates granny. Thats it. Didnt go to communion or any of that lark on either one.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 17:22:45 GMT
Setanta what religion are you? What religion have you brought up your kids in? Jim the same questions to you as well. Serious questions.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 19:11:53 GMT
I would have become an altar boy if I had thought it would have got me off school as well. ;D ;D
Fair enough.
There usually is some kind of disagreement concerning baptism/christening etc, believe me I know all about it. To do with your daughter though are you going to talk to her about God etc in general or do you not want her to know?
I understand but it shows that you must have some kind of faith or religious conviction.
Well you cannot really be classed Catholic if you go against Church tachings which is in itself a punishable crime, not according to me but according to the catholic church itself. Why do you call yourself Catholic if you do not want anything to do with the catholic church? You don't need a church of bricks and mortar nor do you need to belong to a particular faith (Protestant or Catholic) to worship God.
The meaning of things within any faith is usually taken over by the social issues and gatherings. I have one mate who recently had there baby baptized and it was a whole big affair. He promised to bring the child up in a Christian home etc yet he is more into worshiping the aztecs and Egyptians.
Why do you ask WASP? Partly because republicans who claim, to hate the Catholic church or have no time for it are very quick to defend it and partly out of curiosity.
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Post by Jim on Oct 2, 2007 19:48:45 GMT
Setanta what religion are you? What religion have you brought up your kids in? Jim the same questions to you as well. Serious questions. I was baptised a catholic, done my communion and confession as a catholic and at the minute I dont have a religion. From I was about 14 or 15 I stopped going to church completely and have no interest in it whatsoever. Havent got kids but wouldnt bother with all that baptising unless the bird insisted on it, then I'd just go along for it for the sake of it. I dont think the idea of some fella in robes dunking a kids head in water a good one. I've never been quick to defend the church but I have been quick to defend catholics or individual priests if they arent up their own arse. The church and the pope I've no interest in defending and usually secretly agree with most of what you say about them. |
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Post by bearhunter on Oct 2, 2007 19:55:07 GMT
I think they are 'very quick to defend it" because they are sick of people constantly attacking it. Regardless of whether one considers oneself to be a member of a particular group, it takes an odd stripe of bastard to stand by and watch any group getting repeatedly attacked. Or maybe not, that's just my opinion. You may have noticed over the past couple of years or so that I will defend the catholic church against the usual accusations (often from your good self, Wasp). Yet I and my children are atheists. My children have never made confession/communion/confirmation, wouldn't know what to do in a church, wouldn't know a prayer and often wonder aloud at the stupidity of the gospelling gobshites they see on telly.
But still I'll defend catholicism out of a sense of fairness.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 19:55:35 GMT
Fair enough. In all seriousness do you think you could bring yourself to be inline with general beliefs of Protestantism or have you not interest in God at all?
I understand that but if your reasons for objecting to the church are genuine for you then stick to your guns.
I left my own church over this but for different reasons.
Pssst your secrets out. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 20:03:27 GMT
I think they are 'very quick to defend it" because they are sick of people constantly attacking it. Regardless of whether one considers oneself to be a member of a particular group, it takes an odd stripe of bastard to stand by and watch any group getting repeatedly attacked. Or maybe not, that's just my opinion. You may have noticed over the past couple of years or so that I will defend the catholic church against the usual accusations (often from your good self, Wasp). Yet I and my children are atheists. My children have never made confession/communion/confirmation, wouldn't know what to do in a church, wouldn't know a prayer and often wonder aloud at the stupidity of the gospelling gobshites they see on telly. But still I'll defend catholicism out of a sense of fairness. Interesting post BH. Regarding condemnation I have no problem whatsoever anyone condemning a Protestant church if the condemnation is justified. I have myself condemned various churchs including the one I used to belong to. This is why I don't see why anyone would defend any church if they were opposed to it themselves or didn't believe in it. If it is because they were brought up Catholic then IMO the only reason they defend it it is because of the N.Ireland mindset. Bit like the blackman calling a black person a 'black person' but condemns a white person for doing the same. This mindset is all too familiar in N.Ireland where we will defend on side because someone from the other side has said something against it even when that person is stating fact. I have myself quoted from Catholic doctrine giving page reference etc from Catholic teachings and even though some disagree with these teachings they inturn defend the church simply because someone from the otherside has said it. I have noticed that Jim has on quite a few occasions condemned the Catholic church but not once has anyone challenged him or got at him or defended the church. Yet when a Protestant does it the reaction is different. Ahh the NIRELAND mindset.  ;D ;D |
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 20:11:43 GMT
Setanta I am not so sure about sacrifices etc but his house is like the inside of a mummy's tomb. He follows or rather believes all the pagan excuses about events of the bible mainl;y wrote by some from the masonic order which in itself contradicts itself.
For example the river turning to blood was because of a volcanic eruption, the plague of flies was becuase so many frogs died when the lava hit the water etc.
On Churchs there is no perfect church and all to often man has made religion as an excuse for war or to make money. Billy Graham a BIG Protestant culprit, Mother Theresa a BIG Catholic culprit. But when it comes to anyone religion causing crime to humanity then the Catholic church is right up there at the top, not ordinaty Catholics BTW but it's head office as in the vatican.
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Post by Jim on Oct 2, 2007 20:12:18 GMT
Fair enough. In all seriousness do you think you could bring yourself to be inline with general beliefs of Protestantism or have you not interest in God at all? I understand that but if your reasons for objecting to the church are genuine for you then stick to your guns. I left my own church over this but for different reasons. Pssst your secrets out. ;D ;D ;D ;D I have no interest in god at all and if I was to follow a religion it would be closer to buddhism or sommat. I dont like how some priests look down on others and how fundamentalist christians think its their god given right to be dickheads to others, my family have had some problems in the past year with the catholic church because one member is muslim and they didnt like it. I was ready to fly back over to belfast and pay a visit to the church group myself. when i told a protestant fella at work who is much older than i am he was as shocked as i was. but i do realise these church groups are small amounts of people in a vast religion, most people my family and friends included dont give a shit about what goes on behind closed doors at the vatican. I dont think i could fit into protestantism either, some of its a lot more mellow than catholism, but some of its just as fundamentalist especially in america. secrets not out yet dont be telling anyone  |
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Post by Wasp on Oct 2, 2007 20:23:08 GMT
Jim I remember my own minister years ago said to me that he had to discuss my son getting baptized with the church elders etc because we were not married at the time. That was it for me because infant baptism IMO is only a tradition yet men were going to decide if a child should be rejected or not. Before leaving I asked would Jesus reject a child in the sameway they might.
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Post by Jim on Oct 3, 2007 13:22:03 GMT
They probably wouldnt. I dont think the drug dealers in the UDA give a shit about loyality, and the ones that do can always claim the IRA army council exists therefore can reform at any minute.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 3, 2007 15:59:11 GMT
As far as die hard members are concerned who are fully committed to the organisation I also doubt it but it hasn't happened so it is hard to say. But as I have already said I think that they would take the stance that the Queen doesn't know enough about the real situation here and that she is saying so because she has been advised to say it. This could easily be put that although they are loyal to her on this occasion they would feel she is wrong and continue the fight.
Saying that her Majesty condemns terrorism no matter whether it is the ira or the uda.
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