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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 0:49:16 GMT
It is not a matter of believing one story over another, it is looking to the facts and to see which story they support. Wasp's hearsay and assertions are not supported by any facts. Some facts are the crime figures, and from them we see mainstream loyalism is involved in drug crimes, to a far greater extent than fringe and 'ex-republican'. I see no proof being put forward to support the fantasy claims of Wasp. Where is the proof or evidence of this IRA fortune? I noticed Wasp shut up about the 11 second fuse claim when I pointed out the device was an electrical unit, and no fuse existed, where was his proof there?
If Wasp is seriously suggesting that republicans are so much more clever than loyalists, that they can avoid detection. Then he needs to think about the further implications of trying to compete with us. I think it is stupid to even suggest that republicans so much more intelligent. People need to be able to separate propaganda and smear campaigns from the truth. Start to analyze statements, before they spew them out as facts.
I am not suggesting that criminality and people who have self gain to the forefront of their objectives have not be members of various republican groups. The facts are there to prove that some 'republicans' have been involved in all areas of criminality. The difference is the levels of criminality and the acceptance by the leadership of criminality within its ranks, compared to loyalism. Where criminality is tolerated, facilitated and accepted.
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Post by Harry on Oct 4, 2007 8:10:58 GMT
It is not a matter of believing one story over another, it is looking to the facts and to see which story they support. Wasp's hearsay and assertions are not supported by any facts. Some facts are the crime figures, and from them we see mainstream loyalism is involved in drug crimes, to a far greater extent than fringe and 'ex-republican'. I see no proof being put forward to support the fantasy claims of Wasp. Where is the proof or evidence of this IRA fortune? I noticed Wasp shut up about the 11 second fuse claim when I pointed out the device was an electrical unit, and no fuse existed, where was his proof there? If Wasp is seriously suggesting that republicans are so much more clever than loyalists, that they can avoid detection. Then he needs to think about the further implications of trying to compete with us. I think it is stupid to even suggest that republicans so much more intelligent. People need to be able to separate propaganda and smear campaigns from the truth. Start to analyze statements, before they spew them out as facts. I am not suggesting that criminality and people who have self gain to the forefront of their objectives have not be members of various republican groups. The facts are there to prove that some 'republicans' have been involved in all areas of criminality. The difference is the levels of criminality and the acceptance by the leadership of criminality within its ranks, compared to loyalism. Where criminality is tolerated, facilitated and accepted. No doubt about it if you want to try and dilute the IRAs involvement in crime then compare them to the Loyalist groups. Loyalism is littered with crime barons, drug barons, they are a cancer on my community. What are we trying to say about the IRA and criminality?? that they aren't or weren't involved in crime?? The IRA are or were one of the biggest crime gangs in Europe. Heavily involved in fuel smuggling, counterfeit goods including alcohol, purfumes,cds,dvds,tobacco. Robberies and tiger kidnappings, training of international terrorists, protection rackets and while drugs weren't tolerated as much as within Loyalist circles they were always a small number of dealers from dissident republicans who the IRA turned a blind eye to in return for a cut of profits. The IRA criminal empire stretched far further than that of any Loyalist groups. Are we saying now that certain crimes are acceptable and others not?? |
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Post by Harry on Oct 4, 2007 8:19:29 GMT
I'd take smuggling DVD's/fuel over making people slaves to drugs and turning them into sex slaves. There's a human price to pay for making money in poison and slavery. Ok so you've merely selected two things the IRA were involved in and related them to something which i'd agree is far worse. How about the training of International terrorists?? I suppose there was no human price to pay for this???  Or kidnapping family members in tiger kidnappings?? Again i suppose there is no human suffering in this??? Protection rackets?? You think poor innocent people were never forced to hand over money they had worked hard for to the IRA just to stop them being beaten up or there business destroyed??? Is this again not human suffering?? is this fair??? There can be no justifying any crime empire while slating others, crime is crime and humans suffer because of it |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 13:08:38 GMT
I am not going to try and deny and defend every action of every republican. Nor am I going to pretend that human suffering did not take place because of actions of the 'war'. Everyone knows that fuel, cattle and smuggling has existed in border areas since the existence of the border. It may even be an accepted way of life for those whos lives straddle the border. Selling cheap cigarettes brought back by holiday makers, and downloading films from the internet and making DVDs of the film can be done by anyone with a computer. But when this is mentioned in relation to republicans the suggestion is that every nationalist dutifully hands over those cigarettes they brought back from their hols (either because of loyalty or the threat of violence), that computer nerds set up banks of computers downloading and mass producing DVD films and then republicans step in and distribute these goods to their distribution network (a network that obviously far out matches Tescos or any Petrol distributor). And the suggestion is that money gained from these deeds far out strips the profit margins of Tesco and it all goes to some leading republican that skims off the top for themselves.
The difference for myself is that the Asset Recovery Agency was set up to target Republicans and to expose the Republican leaders as crime lords and to isolate them from the rank and file. After years of deep investigation, I do not see any evidence that has proven or even hinted that such a network exists.
I remember talking to the UVF during the 'supergrass era' to try and co-ordinate a response to this facet of policy. Their first question to me was 'how do you get paid for each tv interview?'. I tried to explain that interviews were free and we wanted to get the publicity. I could see that they did not believe me. I also remember talking to a shopkeeper off the Shankill Road, and he told me that he paid 'protection money' each week. If anyone asked a Falls Road shopkeeper for 'protection money' they would be told to take themselves off. To my knowledge there is no republican protection racket in Belfast where money is collected. Outside building contractors were approached and it is requested that a certain percentage of the work force is local. And one or two individuals may approach the contractor and have a reference, but there is no obligation to employ. During the 'H-Block campaign' shopkeepers were asked to donate goods for ballots, and a 'collection can' was left on the counter. This was monitored and ensured that it was not abused and each shopkeeper usually only dealt with one local person, this could be viewed as a 'protection racket' and I will not argue against that view. But the suggestion is again that some vast empire is in existence where 'protection money' rolls in. Exploitation has never been acceptable to Republicans, but in the past we have exploited, we have tried to limit and balance that exploitation, hopefully to keep the price of that exploitation to an affordable scale. This is not attempt to justify, but to explain that personal greed was never a motivation for republicans.
Sadly people who live in loyalist communities do not see loyalist groups limiting themselves.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 4, 2007 14:08:41 GMT
I didn't shut up about it and I still believe the 11 second fuse. Why would kelly have said he would have shouted bomb as he ran off if the bomb was planned to hit that evening?
No what I mean is republicans are far more experienced thus they would be smarter in dealing with certain things because experience brings knowledge and then near perfection. That is why loyalists made so many mistakes in there planning etc.
Same for everyone.
There are many facts that proof cannot be provided for because the proof is the eye witness for example. Republicans believe the whole collusion theory, where is the factual proof to charge any individual with collusion. Didn't ex RUC officers challenge O'Droan to charge them and bring the evidence forward. No charges, no evidence just facts given on hearsay and word of mouth from individuals. Yet when I say things that are I believe to be fact republicans want proof but don't think the same when it is 'facts' they are pointing out, usually just groundless findings.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 4, 2007 14:15:43 GMT
Kidnapping never sat well with you? Holy fuck setanta some of those who were kidnapped were killed, and all were terrified. How can you say such a thing?? So to kidnap someone, terrify them and maybe even kill them while there families are worried sick is not as bad as drug dealing?? All these are shocking crimes and as bad as eachother.
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Post by Harry on Oct 4, 2007 14:31:44 GMT
Why keep relating what Republiocans done to Loyalists?? We know the scum we have in our own community but it doesn't lessen what was done by Republicans.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 14:42:17 GMT
Well you never replied or mentioned it again until I prompted you!
The difference with the O'Loan report was that it had sufficient evidence to prove that evidence that would have led to convictions had been systematically removed. So the challenge by the RUC officers did not counter the facts, they knew the evidence had been removed. But there was still proof that it did exist.
But proof has never existed that shows the existence of an IRA crime empire lorded over by rich leaders. This is MI5/MI6 make belief. No one or organization can be that perfect or that experienced to remove all evidence, and to leave no trace of that removal. There will always be whistle-blowers and double agents, why have none of these pointed to the clues of this make belief financial empire? The only logical conclusion must be that such stories are exaggerated and more possibly false.
Wasp said, "No what I mean is republicans are far more experienced thus they would be smarter in dealing with certain things because experience brings knowledge and then near perfection. That is why loyalists made so many mistakes in there planning etc." Do you even listen to yourself Wasp?!! Where does this Republican experience over Loyalist experience come from?? Modern Loyalism has been in existence longer than modern Republicanism. What does 'near perfection' mean? You make us sound like Gods, as they are the only ones I know that are supposed to be 'near perfection'. I think for you to even continue to pursue this line of argument does suggest that it might be true, we are superior at least to you! And you also suggest that any operation that was a military 'success' had to be organized by forces outside of Loyalism as they were incapable of planning anything themselves. Do you mean Wasp that they had help? Who from?
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 15:02:54 GMT
The reason why I keep relating Republicans to the actions of Loyalists because this thread is headed, 'UDA Feud Spreads'. Therefore I am attempting to keep to the topic heading. Others have tried to divert the discussion away from the reasons why there is a UDA feud. And have brought fantasy and false statements directed at republicans into the debate. Maybe we should all return to the topic, and examine why the UDA is feuding, what are the disputes over?
Is there a fundamental political difference within the UDA?
Or is it simply that now that British intelligence no longer needs the UDA, the justification for shooting catholics is even weaker than before, so the only binding force is the crumbling and dwindling crime finances. And as these have shrunk the fighting has begun to look after each separate individual personal interest.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 4, 2007 15:22:23 GMT
Setanta I think I made it clear I was talking about ransoms etc as well.
AFD wrote 'And you also suggest that any operation that was a military 'success' had to be organized by forces outside of Loyalism as they were incapable of planning anything themselves. Do you mean Wasp that they had help? Who from? '
When did I say they had no successes?? Again you are trying to twist things around. Anyway you may think you are superior to me, maybe you are, maybe I am just some thick Prod etc, but when it comes to humanity and the basic care for human life then I think we know who or what ones are in the sewers and who are not.
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Post by Harry on Oct 4, 2007 15:27:06 GMT
The reason why I keep relating Republicans to the actions of Loyalists because this thread is headed, 'UDA Feud Spreads'. Therefore I am attempting to keep to the topic heading. Others have tried to divert the discussion away from the reasons why there is a UDA feud. And have brought fantasy and false statements directed at republicans into the debate. Maybe we should all return to the topic, and examine why the UDA is feuding, what are the disputes over? Is there a fundamental political difference within the UDA? Or is it simply that now that British intelligence no longer needs the UDA, the justification for shooting catholics is even weaker than before, so the only binding force is the crumbling and dwindling crime finances. And as these have shrunk the fighting has begun to look after each separate individual personal interest. The UDA is riddled with crime, drugs, thugs, bullies. The sooner they disband the better. The UDA should now stand down the organistion and make it clear that the UDA no longer exsist. Let these criminals look after themselves and stop using the UDA name. The UDA was formed to defend our community. Now our community needs defending from them!!! The founders of the UDA must shudder when they see what the organistaion has evolved into tp |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 15:56:09 GMT
Harry wrote; "The UDA is riddled with crime, drugs, thugs, bullies. The sooner they disband the better. The UDA should now stand down the organistion and make it clear that the UDA no longer exsist. Let these criminals look after themselves and stop using the UDA name. The UDA was formed to defend our community. Now our community needs defending from them!!! The founders of the UDA must shudder when they see what the organistaion has evolved into."
You are not going to get any argument from me or from Republicans on that. The question is for the UDA leadership, are they able to see this themselves, and if they are can see this can they deliver the movement? If they try to disband will this lead to further violence and to what levels of violence will this escalate to? How can ordinary protestants move the UDA along to make this logical step? How can Nationalists and Republicans encourage the UDA leadership without seeming to be triumphant and gloating?
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 4, 2007 16:14:28 GMT
Wasp wrote: "No what I mean is republicans are far more experienced thus they would be smarter in dealing with certain things because experience brings knowledge and then near perfection. That is why loyalists made so many mistakes in there planning etc."
Maybe you should read what you write yourself from time to time Wasp. You said that 'loyalists made so many mistakes', so are we now to believe that intermittently out of character loyalists were able to meticulously plan and execute a plan without outside help? Because you have already suggested that they could not cross their legs without help. Now you have these same people doing the Times crossword!
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Post by Harry on Oct 4, 2007 16:49:04 GMT
It depends on the state of the leadership of the UDA and how many of them are making to much for it to disband. Ordinary Protestants must let the UDA know that they no longer represent our community. The UDA has many good men who only have the interest of our country and community at heart but unfortunately its the undersireables who seem to have much more control. I think if the UDA were to fade away then possibly the violence would fizzle out, suddenly scumbag criminals don't have 3 letters to back them up and hopefully the police could sort them. Republicans can do all they can to rein in any dissident threat from within theri own community as this only increases anxiety within Loyalism and allows for the situation to be manipulated by these undesireables
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Post by Wasp on Oct 4, 2007 18:41:21 GMT
AFD you are simply twisting things as usual. You twist round whatever I said all you want but I know what I said and what I meant. They did make many mistakes in which many were caught from an organisation point of view, perhaps poor training on things like firearms etc all add to these mistakes. But if you try often enough success is bound to come and with a little luck it can come earlier.
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