UDA Feud Spreads

[Jim]

Western governments are quick to remove protests from the streets in any way they can short of shooting live rounds (that was reserved for northern ireland).

[bearhunter]

wasp said:

bearhunter said:

WASP, what about a group of people who take up arms against what they consider to be an unjust law and threaten to use those guns unless they get their way? I'm not talking about the IRA here as I said.

That's a very broad question which could depending on circumstances be answered yes and no. Like who are they using the arms against, is it a brutal regime, is there many other people happy with things and only these people are against it etc etc. People using arms to get there way and only there way I would be against as that is more like those people acting like dictators.

I only ask because that is what happened 85 years ago last Friday when the Ulster Covenant was signed. Funny how perspective can make all the difference.

[Wasp]

sigh in N.Ireland at least for years.

[Blue Angel]

setanta got any lithuanian girls on the books there mate as i have a particular weakness for them or czech girls. Brunette about 25 years old and able to talk intelligently between er, other activities And have you made sure to buy some new shades and to learn the pimp lingo as well ? I can just see it now, Gerry Adams saying 'Mary Lou love you long time!'

[Jim]

Dont suppose your ring is extended to England, is it Setanta? Or am I going to have to go back to Belfast to pay to get my hole?

[Wasp]

Setanta this is not a notion. The ira had there hand in making money from prostitutes as well as loyalists, just in the sameway they had there hands in the drug trades. Any mafia style crime the ira were basically doing it. I am not saying they ran brothels in every town sity or street but they did make ill gotten gains from prostitutes.

Some Prostitutes also had to pay protection money to loyalist and republican crime lords (ira/uda etc)..

[Wasp]

I would never allow myself to be involved with anyone who was involved in drugs or whores. Both of which I think of as types of slavery.

I question you on plenty of things but on this I believe you totally. I am not going to insult you by saying anything about typical denial etc as I have said I believe your above comment.

Setanta I am not trying to blacken the ira or make up stories about them (IMO they have blackened themeselves without me doing it), but they were involved in both. I know of a few people personnally who were dealers and users. They sold for the ira and infact one was held at gunpoint and threatened to start paying up or being shot. Funny thing is some of those that threatened him in the past in the street were calling at his house for drugs on a Friday night. Several weeks later he was again threatened at gunpoint to stop dealing because he wouldn't pay up.

Loyalists and republicans carved areas up for there own drugs trade being careful not to go onto the others patch. This is fact but when anyone else does it that doesn't pay up they threaten to shoot.

A while back a lucartive brothel trade was going on in parts of Belfast, one brothel in particular was run by the ira but then taken over by loyalists. Both made money from these girls and both demanded payment of those they were not running. Up to about three years ago (the last I heard) some prostitutes in the centre of Belfast were paying protection money to both sides. One of these girls was an addict and was severely beaten up because she did not pay and had to go into hiding. She wasn't the first and I am sure she wasn't the last.

For any group to deny this they are simply lying to avoid condemnation and embarrassment. Where there was a way to make money these groups were invloved to some extent.

[Jim]

setanta said:

jim said:

Dont suppose your ring is extended to England, is it Setanta? Or am I going to have to go back to Belfast to pay to get my hole?

Nah, it felt like it was but then I put some cream on it.

Hahaha.

[Wasp]

setanta said:

I've heard of and seen plenty of those types of incidents WASP but not from any IRA members. Like I told you in the past, the anti-drugs movement was what brought me to Sinn Féin and I've seen loads of addicts turn to prostitution to feed their habits. To me drug addiction and its consequences are the biggest threat to civilisation ever, and they includes prostitution.

Well the ira were certainly involved and they like loyalsits used people in particular the vulnerable for there own selfish gains. I know we can all have this remance of our side being true heroes and freedom fighters and find these things hard to believe. But in reality these things are true, I would say the prostitutes and drugs are on a larger scale now within loyalist groups than the ira but none the less the ira were involved in both.

Have you ever heard of a place called slaghnale (not sure of the spelling), well it was well known for its drugs and it is a republican place where young people went to a disco. The ira on several occasions made an appearance to the support of the young crowd etc. The ira were doing the dealing or rather had others do it for them for there cut. Same went on at loyalist venues. These are just examples of what many see as blatant hypocricy of both sides when they publically condemn drug dealers etc especially when they are involved themselves.

I have no doubt that some on both sides are dead against drugs, no doubt at all but both sides were involved.

[An Fear Dubh]

I think people like Wasp who try to justify the actions of loyalist paramilitaries have difficulty in facing the fact that in the main loyalist paramilitary organizations are a greater threat and blight on protestant/unionist communities than they are on catholic/nationalist communities. And to help themselves to get over the inconsistencies of their political position they try to comfort themselves that republicans are the 'Catholic/Nationalist' mirror image of paramilitary loyalism. While Wasp maybe able to delude himself, fellow loyalists and others who have little knowledge of Republicans, - the facts, the evidence, and those who do have a working knowledge all point in a different direction.

While I accept that all broad based organizations will attract a number of unsavory and immoral people, who's sole interest will be to promote themselves and to make personal and financial gain by exploiting others and circumstances to suit that end. But in relation to the facts and evidence rather than Wasp's reliance on hearsay and unfounded stories. The number of know active loyalists convicted for drug and prostitution offenses is extremely high. While the number of 'republicans' (and I use that term loosely as their connection to mainstream republicanism is very dubious) convicted for drug offenses is very small, and I can not think of one case for prostitution (but I do not profess absolute knowledge like some). So examining the convictions alone suggests that mainstream loyalism is heavily involved in drugs, while fringe and dubious ex-republicans are involved in drugs. Now some have said that republicans are more intelligent than your average loyalist paramilitary drug dealer and using this higher intelligence have been able to avoid conviction and detection. I do not believe that to be the case, I believe that if republicans are or were involved in drug crime then it would be in the Sunday Newspapers every week, and the convictions against republicans for drug crime would also significantly increase. The same as we were told that the ARA (Asset Recovery Agency) would target the criminality and the godfathers of crime would have their assets seized. I see very few republicans have had successful cases made against them, in fact those that have the evidence has evaporated, no doubt another example of the higher intelligence of Republicans at outwitting massive fund and resource rich government agencies with nothing more than their higher intelligence. This sort of fantasy world that Wasp wallows in only exists in books and Hollywood films.

[Jim]

Couldnt put it better myself but I dont really think Wasp justifies loyalist paramilitaries in most cases.

Welcome back AFD has been a bit quiet without ye.

[An Fear Dubh]

I haven't been away!

I just saw little that was worth commenting on, and the few bits that needed challenged had been adequately rebutted.

[Jim]

Are ya joking? This is the most debate we've been having in weeks!

[Wasp]

AFD you can accuse me of hearsay and living in a fantasy world, well I could say the same to do with alot of your views and opinions. I also believe I added that loyalists were the worst culprits in the sameway they are worse for abusing women while the ira are the worst at abusing children.

Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. Republican criminals are far more experienced and into alot more than loyalists, the fortune the ira gained is proof of this, so it very well may be the case that the ira were smarter and craftier than loyalists.

Where have I justified the actions of loyalist paramilitaries here like you accused me of. While you don't want to believe the ira were anything other than freedom fighters and bravest of the brave, in reality they were far from it, I accept the same of loyalist paramilitaries, I accept they carried out sectarian attacks but republicans don't seem to be able to admit and accept the same.

[Wasp]

setanta said:

Remember you're talking to a former IRA volunteer when you talk to AFD , WASP. If the IRA were into something then he'd know it and he has little to hide. He's been more than honest on here.

So because he was in the iradoes that make him know everything or all that went on. Also if we had a policeman on here saying there was no collusion would you believe it simply because he was/is a member of the RUC and said if there was he would know? Going by your logic then anyone who disagrees with republican claims is right if they were in the organisation that the claims are made about because they would know. What about the many informers such as butterknife, did members know about him for so long??? Does AFD know where the bodies of the disappeared are at because he was in the ira?? Your comment is groundless.

Bollocks setanta and you know it.