|
|
Post by earl on Sept 1, 2009 16:58:47 GMT
Belfast company DoubleBand Films this week presents its latest work on RTÉ One, the 90 minute feature documentary ‘If Lynch Had Invaded’.
As rioting raged in Derry and elsewhere in Northern Ireland, at 9.00 pm on the 13th August 1969 the then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, made a dramatic speech on RTÉ radio and television and declared that “the Irish government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse.” The implicit meaning of these words has always proved a source of great debate for would-be interpreters. And this documentary investigates the course of alternative history that may have come to pass had Lynch acted on these, now famous, words.
‘If Lynch Had Invaded’ was written and directed by Michael Hewitt, produced by Jonathan Golden and is presented by Keelin Shanley (Prime Time) and Tom Clonan (Security Correspondent, The Irish Times)
Through dramatised ‘reconstruction’ and CGI effects ‘If Lynch Had Invaded’ goes on to explore what might have happened, both politically and on the battlefield, had Irish soldiers crossed the border into the north – in other words, if Ireland had gone to war with Britain.
The documentary features interviews with eye-witnesses to the dramatic events of that period including Des O’Malley (former Parliamentary Secretary to Jack Lynch), TK Whitaker (former advisor to Lynch on N. Ireland), Des Fisher (former Deputy Head of News at RTE), Bernadette McAliskey, Eamonn McCann, Tony Benn, John Taylor, Sir Ken Bloomfield, and historians Michael Kennedy, Diarmaid Ferriter, Stephen Collins, and Thomas Hennessey.
In the words of Michael Hewitt, writer & director of the documentary: “This documentary offers a unique insight into the remarkable tensions within Jack Lynch’s cabinet at this incredibly tense time. It also reveals how senior members of the government were prepared to go so far as to advocate an armed response to the situation in Northern Ireland.“
‘If Lynch Had Invaded’ will be shown on RTÉOne on Tuesday, September 1st at 9.35pm
|
|
|
|
Post by Blue Angel on Sept 1, 2009 17:51:58 GMT
We'd have been picked up and thrown out like yesterday's left-overs. The IRA only succeeded in achieving a stalemate of sorts by avoiding entering pitched conflicts, the Irish Defence Forces of the late 60's were horrendously under-equipped-, they had maybe half a dozen tanks working (if that), somewhat less than 100 APC's, an Aer Corps with only about 30 planes at best and the Naval Service ships (all 3 of them) were rotten and for a period in 1969 none of them was even seaworthy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blue Angel on Sept 1, 2009 20:02:11 GMT
Irish aer corps - here's what I got for their equipment after looking up the aircraft registered at the time - 7 alouette helicopters, 7 Vampire jet fighters (hopelessly out of date by 1969 in any case), about 15 to 20 other mixed aircraft (the register is unclear on exact numbers and some of these may have crashed by 1969).
Army - about 100 assorted apcs/tanks etc. Mainly Panhard armoured cars at this point, about 24 or so artillery pieces - possibly some more in service with reserve defence forces. A fairly large number of small arms, at least enough rifles etc. to arm around 25,000 plus men but a distinct lack of any heavy weaponry. Also lack of ammunition reserves for a protacted campaign.
Naval Service - 3 minesweepers - nearly inoperable as I pointed out above.
Worst case scenario - Ireland reconquered totally
Best case scenario - Britain errects an even stronger border and makes a very uneasy scenarior or protracted guerilla war if Irish Officers decide to abandon all out frontal attacks early on and preserve what weapons they can.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Sept 1, 2009 20:27:13 GMT
Let me get this straight, Ireland remained neutral in the fight against Hitler, yet they thought about flexing their military muscle by planning to invade N.Ireland?? Laughable really.
Regarding there military strength even though it is there to be joked at and laughed at etc I would rather not go down that route.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blue Angel on Sept 1, 2009 20:34:37 GMT
You can't 'invade' your own country - military spending has never been a priority in Ireland and spending money on the defence forces has always been a low priority for any govt. as a result.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Sept 1, 2009 21:20:58 GMT
I didn't say invade the republic, I said N.Ireland which obviously is not there own country now is it.
No they didnt spend much on the military, they preferred to spend it on funding terrorists. Oh I couldnt resist that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Sept 2, 2009 6:56:46 GMT
The strength of the Irish army is not the point Wasp, the very act of invading Northern Ireland would have had far reaching consequences, it would have been a very different history to as we know it now.
Theres no doubt the British Army would have destroyed the Irish Army as they were militarily out of their league in every possible way, politically it would have been suicide for Britain, especially after losing their Empire.
America as the world superpower (as I doubt the Soviets would have gave a shit) would have been involved very quickly, not militarily ofcourse but politically, and that was dangerous for Britain. No doubt the French too, again, politically. And the UN. This would have been an international incident in Western Europe and couldnt be allowed to happen.
BUT, I'm unsure as to if the British Army would have been called in right away guns blazing. Lets remember the reason they were sent into NI in the first place was for the exact same reason Lynch was looking to invade NI (well, so they say). Although he'd have wanted to invade to persue unification it is not the only reason. Theres no doubt the two Governments who werent exactly the best of friends would have worked something out anyway. Britain had no need to go to war again, it was still in heavy debt.
But those are just my views, maybe theyre a bit too doomsday. I want to see this documemtary but i cant get RTE over here. I wonder if anyone will upload it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Sept 2, 2009 6:57:12 GMT
I didn't say invade the republic, I said N.Ireland which obviously is not there own country now is it. No they didnt spend much on the military, they preferred to spend it on funding terrorists. Oh I couldnt resist that. So did the British Government. Point? |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Sept 2, 2009 7:06:45 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Sept 2, 2009 8:41:38 GMT
The strength of the Irish army is not the point Wasp, the very act of invading Northern Ireland would have had far reaching consequences, it would have been a very different history to as we know it now. Theres no doubt the British Army would have destroyed the Irish Army as they were militarily out of their league in every possible way, politically it would have been suicide for Britain, especially after losing their Empire. America as the world superpower (as I doubt the Soviets would have gave a shit) would have been involved very quickly, not militarily ofcourse but politically, and that was dangerous for Britain. No doubt the French too, again, politically. And the UN. This would have been an international incident in Western Europe and couldnt be allowed to happen. BUT, I'm unsure as to if the British Army would have been called in right away guns blazing. Lets remember the reason they were sent into NI in the first place was for the exact same reason Lynch was looking to invade NI (well, so they say). Although he'd have wanted to invade to persue unification it is not the only reason. Theres no doubt the two Governments who werent exactly the best of friends would have worked something out anyway. Britain had no need to go to war again, it was still in heavy debt. But those are just my views, maybe theyre a bit too doomsday. I want to see this documemtary but i cant get RTE over here. I wonder if anyone will upload it. According to the programme it would have been suicide for Ireland Jim, not Britain. They stated that America and other European nations would have gave Ireland the cold shoulder due to an act of aggression against what is meant to be a friendly neighbour. One expert reckoned that Ireland could still be today they way they were after 2nd world war if they had of done that in 1969 |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Sept 2, 2009 9:02:02 GMT
The strength of the Irish army is not the point Wasp, the very act of invading Northern Ireland would have had far reaching consequences, it would have been a very different history to as we know it now. Theres no doubt the British Army would have destroyed the Irish Army as they were militarily out of their league in every possible way, politically it would have been suicide for Britain, especially after losing their Empire. America as the world superpower (as I doubt the Soviets would have gave a shit) would have been involved very quickly, not militarily ofcourse but politically, and that was dangerous for Britain. No doubt the French too, again, politically. And the UN. This would have been an international incident in Western Europe and couldnt be allowed to happen. BUT, I'm unsure as to if the British Army would have been called in right away guns blazing. Lets remember the reason they were sent into NI in the first place was for the exact same reason Lynch was looking to invade NI (well, so they say). Although he'd have wanted to invade to persue unification it is not the only reason. Theres no doubt the two Governments who werent exactly the best of friends would have worked something out anyway. Britain had no need to go to war again, it was still in heavy debt. But those are just my views, maybe theyre a bit too doomsday. I want to see this documemtary but i cant get RTE over here. I wonder if anyone will upload it. According to the programme it would have been suicide for Ireland Jim, not Britain. They stated that America and other European nations would have gave Ireland the cold shoulder due to an act of aggression against what is meant to be a friendly neighbour. One expert reckoned that Ireland could still be today they way they were after 2nd world war if they had of done that in 1969 Thats only one way of looking at it though. I dont think for a second it would kept Ireland out of the EU. |
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Sept 2, 2009 11:39:57 GMT
Leaving aside any political bias I would tend to agree with much of what they said concerning this. I am not so sure about the EU and the present time but I firmly believe the republic would have been alienated for quite sometime at least.
|
|
|
|
Post by leeside on Sept 2, 2009 11:46:26 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Blue Angel on Sept 2, 2009 13:03:12 GMT
As I can't see the show I don't if the following was touched upon. But my father was serving at the time and I asked his opinion he said the idea was never to send the whole army over the border but to send over a batallion sized force to hold a town like Newry for a limited time (with their line of retreat been protected by several other batallions) and to establish a field hospital or similar and to then petition the UN to place peacekeeping troops in the North afterwards by pointing out they were defending the rights of hte minority populace in the north. He did point out as well that although in a sheer all out fight between the British and Irish army the latter would be massacred that at this point there were relatively few British troops in the north and the main opposition would have been about B Specials and similar and that since it was not intended to try and capture the entirety of the north with an en masse invasion the idea did have some support in army circles. My own feelings are that against the B-Specials the Irish Army could have won (but not as easily as my father thinks as he neglects to remember many of the Specials had significant combat experience to equal their Irish Army counterparts as they were in many cases WW2 Vets).
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Sept 2, 2009 14:42:20 GMT
As I can't see the show I don't if the following was touched upon. But my father was serving at the time and I asked his opinion he said the idea was never to send the whole army over the border but to send over a batallion sized force to hold a town like Newry for a limited time (with their line of retreat been protected by several other batallions) and to establish a field hospital or similar and to then petition the UN to place peacekeeping troops in the North afterwards by pointing out they were defending the rights of hte minority populace in the north. He did point out as well that although in a sheer all out fight between the British and Irish army the latter would be massacred that at this point there were relatively few British troops in the north and the main opposition would have been about B Specials and similar and that since it was not intended to try and capture the entirety of the north with an en masse invasion the idea did have some support in army circles. My own feelings are that against the B-Specials the Irish Army could have won (but not as easily as my father thinks as he neglects to remember many of the Specials had significant combat experience to equal their Irish Army counterparts as they were in many cases WW2 Vets). The B Specials werent particularly well armed and they were as far as I remember, part time, although they had big numbers for a paramilitary policeforce. The Irish Army were also badly equipped but they were still equipped well enough to do what you have suggested they were planning. If that was the case the B Specials would not have had a big impact, considering the IRA were able to close off areas with small numbers, the support from the nationalist population in Newry would be enough to have that plan succeed I think. And thanks Lee, looking for it now. |
|
