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Post by earl on Aug 27, 2009 13:19:11 GMT
If Republicans on here can't see how SF now being in Government in Northern Ireland and the fact that ROI people can't stomach a visit from the Queen isn't in some way linked then i'm not going to try and explain why i think it fucking stinks to high heaven. WTF has SF being in government in NI got to do with the queen of England visiting the ROI? Nothing. If you haven't noticed, we are two separate states. It could be the raving luny party in government up there and it still wouldn't make a difference. And Jim is dead right. It takes time to build relationships, especially one which has had as rocky a past as that between Ireland and Britain. Look at Cuba and the US for example. The Cuban missile crisis occurred in the 60's and it may as well have been yesterday. In the last ten years or so there has been a massive transformation between relationships of the Irish and British. Now working together on NI and in the EU. There is no secret underground opinion that the queen of England can't visit here. When this topic was last on the news, it was mentioned that both governments felt the ideal time for such a thing would be after the handing over of the police and justice powers. So before you head off into a little fantasy about all the big bad boogy men hating your beloved queen of England, make sure you are fully aware of the facts. That works both ways and has done since the Ulster plantation began. Ethnic cleansing has been a part of everyday Ulster life since the 1600's. In loyalist areas, we now have immigrants getting chased out and pro fascist graffiti appearing everywhere. It's sickening to think about, but don't try and play the 'we're the only ones wronged card'. Catholics are chasing out Protestants in some areas, and Protestants are chasing out Catholics and immigrants in other areas. Life carries on as normal in Ulster as it has for 100's of years. Nothing new. It's a part of your shared heritage. And guess what, Ulster isn't unique in this. Anywhere where there are religious differences, this occurs. Only a few months ago, Hindus in India were burning Christians out of there homes in the thousands and forcing conversions. You had to hang an orange flag on your house to prevent it from being ransacked. You know of the issues in Iraq between the two muslim faith's blowing each other out of it on a scale which eclipses the troubles. And then there was the Balkans and Rwanda. This sickening shite happens everywhere. It's up to the people and those who are charged with maintaining the peace to stop it, but I haven't seen any change in the wind up there in those regards. Both sides love to hate each other. I posted a news item on (what was reported in the article) Loyalists running immigrants out of their areas. WASP stated that those who perpetrated this were not Loyalists. So you disagree with him on this, as by your logic, you HAVE to be of one side or the other, as if everyone is politically active and motivated, instead of just being a scumbag. And it's not denying anything. If I were to call them republicans, it would be a badge of honour to them. They'd love to think they are doing this shite 'for the cause'. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. I've condemned these acts, so it's not like I'm washing my hands of it and I am more than willing to accept any wrongs perpetrated, as you have in the past. This isn't political. This is sectarianism. Since politics and sectarianism go hand and hand in NI, it's almost impossible to distinguish one from the other. Mate tell me about it. After this site last closed down, I was on politics.ie, and I couldn't believe the shite some lads were on about there. I found myself defending unionists from the outright bigotry and fantasy rubbish some were spouting. Well, this is where we'll agree to differ. I would never lump you in with some scumbag skinhead pimp drugdealing bigoted toerag. I have too much respect for you. And I'm not the media. I'm a Liverpool fan, just like you. I care about football more than politics or religion. I'm in a right shitty mood all week over that Villa result. I do like a good debate though. It contradicts what you said above. Either we are all the same, or we are different. Mate, don't let that crap in Rasharkin blind you. I am with you in regards your feelings of disgust and am appalled that this is done in my name and beliefs. Just because I'm a republican, it doesn't mean I automatically agree with any of it. I'm a person first and foremost and I can empathise. |
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Post by Republic on Aug 27, 2009 13:58:53 GMT
Any visit will be agreed upon by both govts first. then the Irish govt will make an invite, and the Queen will accept.
It is not like the Queen is hanging by the phone waiting for an invite.
Most likely, the Irish govt are not able to issue an invite until they reach agreement with their British counterparts. I'm sure security is a huge issue. Therefore timing is a big issue for both govts.
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Post by Wasp on Aug 27, 2009 14:28:43 GMT
Any visit will be agreed upon by both govts first. then the Irish govt will make an invite, and the Queen will accept. It is not like the Queen is hanging by the phone waiting for an invite. Most likely, the Irish govt are not able to issue an invite until they reach agreement with their British counterparts. I'm sure security is a huge issue. Therefore timing is a big issue for both govts. Mate the fact remains the irish president has made numerous official visits to this part of the UK, and the head of the UK has never been invited to the presidents country in return. |
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Post by earl on Aug 27, 2009 14:44:24 GMT
Any visit will be agreed upon by both govts first. then the Irish govt will make an invite, and the Queen will accept. It is not like the Queen is hanging by the phone waiting for an invite. Most likely, the Irish govt are not able to issue an invite until they reach agreement with their British counterparts. I'm sure security is a huge issue. Therefore timing is a big issue for both govts. Mate the fact remains the irish president has made numerous official visits to this part of the UK, and the head of the UK has never been invited to the presidents country in return. Yes that is a fact and Republic has given the reason for that fact. For the record, I have absolutely no issue with the queen of England coming over here. Prince Charles and Phillip have both been here, as well as many other members of the royal family numerous times. I believe that every head of state should be accorded the same level of respect and shouldn't be treated any differently and it is fast approaching the time when this will be how it is with the queen of England. relationships have improved and it is now down to both governments to pick a time. |
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Post by Wasp on Aug 27, 2009 14:52:33 GMT
FFS Earl catch a grip, we are talking about whats happening today and in recent years not fucking 400 years ago where the world and governments were a very different thing altogether than modern times. So stop with the MOPE attitude.
Earl it is not just loyalist areas where immigrants have suffered racist abuse.
Again it is not just Protestants chasing out immigrants. Earl the fact remains there is not a single mainly catholic area that I know of where Protestants have moved to, there maybe 1 but I never heard of it. Yet every single mainly Protestant area has catholics move into that area/town and have done for years. Now that tells the true story which proves that Protestants suffer alot more ethnic cleansing than Catholics. An unwillingness on the Protestant side to report intimidation and a complete lack of media interest and weak leadership has made sure these facts do not hit the headlines.
In Ahoghill 2 catholic families a number of years ago were targeted, there were local councillors, the police, neighbours and the families themselves being interviewed over a period of days/weeks and rightly so BTW. When it comes to the likes of Rasharkin to start with it just about made the local papers but even then that was after years of intimidation and abuse. Now the consistency of the attacks which at present number over 40 and that does not include the verbal intimidation and threats, we now have more media attention on the area. If this was the other way around I assure you it would be receiving much more attention with our 2 governments speaking out along with the media and politicians etc alot sonner than now, and it certainly would be in alot more depth and coverage.
Earl take coleraine as an example, a town which has made the headlines for all the bad reasons in recent times. All the estates are mainly Protestant yet only a few catholic homes targeted over the last 30 years. The only republican area which is a small area has been the problem area for decades with only about 1 Prod family left, the rest have been forced from their homes including a pregnant mother a few years back and an elderly couple a few months back. Protestants and Catholics have lived peacefully for decades, they work together and play together. I know of very few who dont have close friends from the otherside, well that is apart from the sommerset area which is well known for its winos, its crime, its drug dealing and its anti social behaviour which has been a major problem for ALL the people of Coleraine. Last week people both Protestant and catholics out enjoying a night out were standing having a smoke outside a pub and were subjected to sectarian and racist abuse by some republican youths. Everyone standing outside were in mixed company yet they were all called orange bastards etc and thankfully not a single person reacted to the abuse, they just ignored it. So dont try and make out sectarian attacks is the norm up here, because most areas people live quite happily side by side. Unfortunately for Coleraine the only republican area is the only problem area, even the poorest area does not have the same anti social behaviour as the scumbags from sommerset.
True for certain sections.
Your a big bad Prod. ;D ;D
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Post by Wasp on Aug 27, 2009 14:53:51 GMT
Exactly, that is exactly what I have been saying.
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Post by earl on Aug 27, 2009 15:20:57 GMT
WASP,
It's a historical fact that ethnic cleansing has been going on for centuries by both sides in Ulster. Do you know what a MOPE is? If I had said, "Catholics have been ethnically cleansed", and totally ignored any such cleansing of Protestants, then I'd be a MOPE. Kind of like the rest of your post where you go on to try and make out that Protestants are the only ones getting this treatment. I acknowledge that both sides are at it and always have. That's an acceptance of history and putting it into context. People being forced out of their homes over religion is nothing new in ulster.
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Post by Wasp on Aug 27, 2009 22:00:58 GMT
Earl the fact you went back 400 years which is totally unfair concerning todays situation as we both know the world was a very different place. Secondly not once did I say it was only Protestants getting this treatment. Tell me what exactly was untrue about any of the points I made??
Dont forget Earl you know I helped a catholic family move after an attack and also the fact I was totally opposed to the Harryville protests. I am totally aware of the things some of those from my community done concerning this type of thing, but also I am totally aware that not all those targeted were just ordinary innocent catholics.
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Post by earl on Aug 28, 2009 8:52:47 GMT
WASP, Ulster is stuck in a continuous loop. Ever heard the phrase, "those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it"? I don't see how it's unfair to show all this in context. It didn't start yesterday. It didn't start last week. It didn't start in 1969. It didn't start in the 1920's. It didn't start in 1801. I'm not trying to justify this carry on. Far from it, I'm putting it into context. At the moment, it's Rasharkin. Later it could be somewhere else with a different set of victims, but with the same motive, religious intolerance, bitterness of history and out and out bigotry. One thing is certain, this isn't the end of this carry on. More families will be hunted from their homes and thats a sickening inevitability. Hugh Orde has stated that NI politicians have failed to prevent the spread of sectarianism. He's dead right. Instead of sharing power, they carved it up into their own little fiefdoms and bicker at each other instead of compromising for the good of everyone.
We see SF looking to reinvigorate their grass roots hardliners and trying to still look like a revolutionary party, when they are now the mainstream party and should be acting responsibly. They are like an adult who still thinks they are a teenager. You see Éirigí running around like they are in the 1960's involved with the counter-culture, when we are living in completely different times and have a different situation to deal with. You see Reg Empey talking about not allowing non-unionists into certain posts, harking back to the days of gerrymandering. We see the DUP and the TUV trying to out scare the voters into voting for them. Fear and hatred are still the biggest vote winners, not progress and compromise. Scotland has had it's devolved government in place for less time than NI has and got it's shit together far quicker.
Sectarianism is built into the DNA of Ulster. It's how the place is run from the top, right down to the spivs on the street corners. In fact the only place where co-operation seems to be carrying on is in the drug trade between former paramilitary foes.
You called me the MOPE WASP. I'm just returning the favour. A MOPE never looks at the wrongs his own side is guilty of. I certainly do look at any wrongs done in my name.
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Post by Harry on Aug 28, 2009 9:45:52 GMT
So isn't it about high time that foreigners from south of the border kept their noses out of our affairs?? Is that a fair statement?? We are after all two separate states.
Why the hell did we ever let a bunch of foreigners have a vote in the GFA?? It can't only be linked when it suits those living in ROI...
Hell with attitudes like Jim and Earls we have no need to worry WASP.
Rightly or wrongly i see ROI having a role in NI. We have been linked since it all began. I want to foster strong relationships with my neighbours, i have no problem with cross border bodies, cross border communications, its all good and is part of normalisation.
SF/IRA blew my country to bits with much help from those south of the border. Those south of the border provided save havens and launch platforms for attacks. This might i add much much more recent than British actions south of the border. If i can accept that SF and Republicans have a major role in the future of NI then i don't see how it is such a big issue to have the Queen visit Dublin. That is if we are truly to move on??
Problem is, still to many south of the border couldn't tolerate it, couldn't accept it. These very people are the same ones who have been backing SF/IRA for decades. That is where my problem lies.
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Post by Jim on Aug 28, 2009 9:55:42 GMT
Where did I say "when it suits those living in the ROI?". I think my attitude is justified, international relations are slow, petty and fickle, no citizen of any state is going to change that, not you, me or Earl, only the people in charge.
You keep mentioning SF Harry, SF have no say in this. None, nothing. They arent in Government in the south, they're barely even a threat to seats these after the past few elections (although Setanta will say otherwise). This is a matter for two parties; the british Labour party and the irish Fianna Fail party. Not SF, not the DUP, not the IRA, not Conservative, not the SNP, no one else.
Many south of the border wouldnt want it to happen, you're right, many more would like to see it happen, but as I said, neither matter, only the people who sit at big tables in suits will decide. People, ironically, no one in NI are able to vote for. We cant vote for either Fianna Fail OR Labour!
Both Governments have agreed it wont happen until certain things happen in NI, these were not stipulations put in place by one side, but both. When change happens in NI, change will follow suit in the south and in Britain in regards to diplomatic visits. So rather than blame the ROI you should be looking at the politicians that represent you who have no interest in making it happen.
I personally am indifferent to if the Queen visits Dublin as I'm against monarchy and royalty of any kind fundamentally, domestically and abroad (so thats not just a swipe at lizzy!) but if it happened next week I'd be for it as well as it will further progress in the North, which is in my interests.
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Post by Republic on Aug 28, 2009 10:22:51 GMT
If i can accept that SF and Republicans have a major role in the future of NI then i don't see how it is such a big issue to have the Queen visit Dublin. That is if we are truly to move on?? Problem is, still to many south of the border couldn't tolerate it, couldn't accept it. These very people are the same ones who have been backing SF/IRA for decades. That is where my problem lies. Whoa, Harry, slow down. Most people are not opposed to such a visit. It is the fringes that are the problem, the SF types etc. No one wants another Love Ulster type situation (although hopefully security would be better for a state visit). And most of all, no one wants a few crackpots coming down from Armagh trying to bomb the Queen while she is here. I thought it was common knowledge that ROI are not going to invite the Queen until both govts decide together. That includes your own govt who probably have their own reasons for not giving the go ahead yet, McAleese has mentioned numerous times that she would welcome a visit from the Queen. Why do people ignore this? |
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Post by Wasp on Aug 28, 2009 11:01:47 GMT
Then republic the 2 governments should put on hold any future visits by the Irish president until a date is decided for Her Majesty to visit your country. It has to cut both ways and it cannot and must not be only suitable to oneside and not the other which is happening at present.
Earl I did not call you a mope.
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Post by earl on Aug 28, 2009 12:49:25 GMT
Fair enough WASP, you didn't call me a MOPE. I apologise for calling you a MOPE.
WASP,
International diplomacy doesn't work on a schoolyard level (although sometimes it seems that way). It's not a case of well, "if I can't, neither can you". I think you will find that the majority of UK citizens do not share your parochial viewpoint.
I don't know why SF keeps getting mentioned here in relation to the ROI. They have no power, they have no say. They are a protest vote. Nothing more. You only have to see their response to a Mountbatton memorial and look at the commemorations occurring island wide for those murders and also Warrenpoint to see that SF are completely out of step with mainstream nationalist and republican thinking south of the border.
Both governments have to decide a date and as I've flipping said already they have said that it will be after the P&J powers have been devolved.
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Post by Harry on Aug 28, 2009 13:11:47 GMT
My problem isn't with the general people of ROI. I keep banging on about SF etc because it is them who will be the strongest opposers of any Monarch visit to Ireland. That is where it is linked to me. They are my problem. Them and their supporters preach about this, that and the other but they aren't to fond on returning the gesture if you know what i mean.
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