|
Post by Wasp on Oct 26, 2008 23:35:44 GMT
TBH I am, waste of money. Apart from that Scotland and Wales are part of the UK, Ireland is not so why fund it.
It still costs and translation costs money, alot of money which could be better served elsewhere.
To me that is simply bollocks, I am speaking from experience and alot of it at that. The majority at my school were from a working class background, in my class there was one kid who's family were loaded anda few who came from well off families, the rest went from downright poor to coping.
I can't speak for the falls but I know plenty including relatives of mine that travel from Broughshane, Ahoghill etc to grammar schools and then there are those from areas like harryville and Ballykeel who attend grammar schools.
I already told you I used to live in one of the top 7 deprived estates in N.Ireland and everymorning and afternoon plenty of kids in grammar school uniforms can be seen heading off to and from school.
Sometimes all this talk about working class kids being worse off than middle class kids concerning school placements seems to be mere scare mongering and jealousy.
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Oct 27, 2008 14:34:39 GMT
Eh?!?! Northern Ireland is part of the UK, Northern Ireland is also a hot spot for the growth of the Irish language. Go to some parts of Scotland and Wales and they'll tell you to shove your opinion up your arse for suggesting to stop funding the language of their nation and the very basis of their culture. Maybe we should just keep anglo-ising ourselves and forget that we're Irish. The language part of your heritage as it is of mine. Ofcourse translation costs money, how much depends on who you get to do it. You could say the same about many issues, putting the money into other things isnt an excuse or you may as well bring everything the government pays for to the barebones. The money used to buy expensive cars Stormont pays for its ministers could be put into things drug rehabilitation and community projects, there are hundreds of them that would gag for £30,000 or more. And when did you go to secondary school? You must have went at least in the 70s, not the 2000s! Schools have changed over the decades, its a fact that middle class schools will select mainly middle class children to attend their schools instead of ruffians from the falls and shankill, why do you think they're so oppossed to scrapping the 11+? Why is it even sensible or right to put a child under that much pressure? Its a fucking sham, don't talk to me about working class issues when you support people being given more chances than others. How the fuck can someone at 11 be prepared to be judged because they got a D in their 11+? I got a D in mine and it took me until I was 18 to know what I wanted to do with my life, and even then I still don't know what I should be doing. There are grammar schools on the falls, by no means are they the quality of others. I'd not call it scare mongering or jealousy, I'd call it reading reports and making an informed opinion. I'm not jealous of anyone in this world, not a fuckin soul.
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 27, 2008 20:59:15 GMT
And your point is? I know NI is part of the UK, Ireland is not. I couldn't give a fuck what they say, fact remains that such funding could be far better spent. Whats the budget for funding the Scottish/Welsh languages?? If Ireland wants to fund the Irish language that is upto them and it is no concern of mine. What does concern me is much needed money within the UK being wasted on funding these languages. Its not an excuse its a valid reason. Well I am all for cutting these ministers expenses and putting it into drug rehab. Take your average group of working class teens, how much money do they carry on them, and how many places can they go that would suit their near non existant budget. Young people need somewhere to go, they need to feel part of their community and area, everything now is about making money and our society is so focused on it that they are ignoring 1 of the major contributors to crime and that is boredom. The 80's, what has that got to do with anything. Absolute bollocks, as I said I can't speak for the falls or shankhill but I can speak from personal experience including my own son, nephews, nieces and family friends. Didn't you read what I said about where I used to live and people going to and from grammar schools from there, and that isn't too long ago, and I still see it most days. If that is your attitude then don't talk to me at all, if you can't accept I am entitled to my point of view and to disagree with you then that is your childish problem. Have I lambasted you for your opinions? My son hasn't a clue what he wants to do and he is doing A levels, I know quite a few people who didn't make the 11+ grade, yet transferred to grammar school in their 2nd or 3rd year. I know a few who didn't make the grade this year yet managed to get a place in the grammar school. My own nephew being 1 of them. Not all grammar schools are top quality, Ballymena has cambridge house and the acadamy, the acadamey is the better one or rather better known for its higher acievements but that doesn't mean cambridge house is crap. Yeh reading bias reports from those who want to change the system. Ruanne has fucked the whole thing up, no-one including teachers had a clue what she was on about, no-one here could tell me what she was on about apart from spin. She even called a press conference, read a statement then refused to answer questions ffs. Some education minister And I would say the same about any minister who acted like a stand up comedian.
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Oct 27, 2008 22:10:47 GMT
I'd like to know what your point is to be honest, what has Ireland got to do with being in the UK or not? The Republic pays for its own things (and ours, actually), they arent asking for hand outs, they're giving hand outs. NI is part of the UK and as a constituent country of the UK it has the same rights as the other constituent countries, and our right to language protection is no more or less than the Welsh or Scottish.
You clearly do give a fuck what they say, they're fellow brits like yourself.
What are you on about? It IS a concern of yours, its legislation and law in Northern Ireland, not the Republic, not England, not fuckin' France, HERE.
That has no bearings on money allocated to cultural and language facilities or legislation. Take money from places where it really IS wasted, like the outdated civil service, our culture will not be held at ransome by people who think there are better ways to spend money yet uphold outdated state systems that waste massive amounts of money.
Hardly todays world, is it? I went to secondary school in the late 90s and even thats a different world to now.
Aye I did read it, how many of those people represent the greater community in your area? The falls has a grammar school but its more like a normal secondary school compared to other schools in Belfast that call themselves grammar schools. Plenty of kids go to it, can't think of anyone I know or my brother knows or my cousins know that go to the nicer schools that are from where I'm from. When I was doing night classes at tech I met a fair few from those schools because they were taking night classes as extra studies, which arent cheap. TBH, different world to anyone I know still in school. Completely different world.
Didnt say anything about you not being entitled to an opinion, not my place to make that judgement, but I cant understand why you support academic selection yet go on about the working class and money needing to be spent on us. Why is that exactly? You support a middle class policy then come out with a working class answer for another issue. Is it just to hold up the establishment? Is it because SF recommended it so its automatically a bad policy? Why are the PUP advocating the same thing as SF, who for all intents and purposes, much more hardline and loyalist than the DUP?
My brother tried to transfer to a grammar school and was pretty much told to go fuck himself in a nicer way, even though his GCSEs were outstanding for the subjects he was given (even doing some a year earlier than the others) the chance to do. He's probably smarter than most at a grammar school but because he comes from a low income family in a shit hole and goes to a school with a very bad reputation they wouldnt have it. Is that fair? Thats my personal example of how lovely grammar schools are. They can go fuck themselves, its an outdated system that even the rest of the UK see as shite. But ofcourse, Northern Ireland is always behind the times, the backwater shitehole that it is.
What teachers, Wasp? There are a good few thousand of them knocking around and I doubt they all have the same opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 27, 2008 23:02:34 GMT
The Irish language Jim, the name says it all, we are in the UK so why should funding be made for the Irish language. ON an added note I am opposed to funding for UlsterScots as well, I am not opposed to some small token of help but not substantial amounts. As far as translation goes then we need to scrap it. I clearly don't, I accept us Brits as you put at have varying opinions and great diversity. We believe in those freedoms unlike republicans who kill and maim those who disagree with them. No Jim what the republic does in funding the Irish language is no concern of mine. Now your last comment here is a joke, while I fully agree with taking money out of other areas where it is wasted, funding these languages and paying big amounts for translation is right up there among the money wasters. If everyone speaks English, fully understands English then why pay to translate it into something else. Biggest waste of time and money. What a flamin waffle Jim. Boy you do exaggerate to play the wee victim with this 'our culture will not be held at ransome by people who think'. Get your chip off your shoulder ffs. And my son and nephews/nieces are going to school now, so who is more upto date Jim, the 90's or now?? Could you explain what you mean here, I am talking about working class kids living in working class areas going to grammer school. Maybe Jim you look at grammar schools wrongly, maybe because you do not know anyone from your area that attends what you call a real one is making you judge them all the same. Is there toffs who goto grammar schools?? YES of course there is. Is there rough yins who goto grammer school??? Yes of course there are. Grammar schools are not filled with middle/upper class kids who look down on everyone else. While at school I wasted my education, it wasn't the school that failed me, I failed me. My siblings excelled at school so 2 out of 3 working class kids doing well at grammer school isn't bad now is it??? My niece is top of her year in most subjects and has never got below 95% in maths, a very smart girl who's mum is a part-time cleaner and her dad has 2 jobs, stacking shelves 2 evenings per wek and cleaning petrol pumps 3 or 4 mornings per week. I can name a few kids who went on to become head boys/girls and were a shining example to all pupils who came from working class backgrounds. Not at all JIM, I would class myself as right wing who very much supports the true needs of the working class, I would maybe support some left wing ideas etc but I believe in what I believe and its not just left or right. Do we have to play the old orange and green card here, can we not debate such an important subject without you throwing the card in. Maybe you missed this 'And I would say the same about any minister who acted like a stand up comedian.' Why the need to throw that in when I clearly stated different. Ask the PUP that question, they are entitled to support it just like some teachers do, I am entitled to oppose it just like some teachers do nevermind certain Catholic schools. This is NOT a green or orange issue Jim so stop playing that card. Well I think thats disgusting and TBH thats the first I heard of it. Did your parents try to find reasons etc for it or not pursue the matter?? Its far from fair, but were those really the reasons. No-one asked my parents for their income, no-one has asked me for my income from my sons school etc etc. It is people like your brother that I would fight tooth and nail for if I could if I heard something like that, for me that sort of thing is unheard of and that is the truth. I know 1 fella in particular who never got his 11+ and his wealthy parents went to the school to pay for him to go there and he was refused becuase the school didn't feel he was capable of the workload and advised he should try and wait for transfer tests in 3rd year. Yeh right, why was N.I top of the education league, why was our standards of education envied by the rest of the UK?? Of course teachers have differing opinions ffs.
|
|
|
Post by earl on Oct 28, 2008 10:35:56 GMT
WASP,
Do you think, and by your own political outlook, that Irish speakers, born and bred in NI should be given the same rights as Scots and Welsh speakers are? You keep mentioning the Irish government, but the last time I looked, NI was in the UK, therefore the Irish government have very little to do with this matter. Why should certain citizens rights be granted, while other citizens of the same country be denied similar rights? Forget about the money for a minute. I'm simply talking about the legal position. Can you clarify your point of view please? Would you not think that if there was some sort of recognition there for people like these, that it could help the unionist position as regards sovereignty, as a lot of people would see their culture as respected within the UK. To clarify mine, I would not fully support SF on this issue, as I do not agree with everything being translated. I would be happy with legal recognition, and translations within reason, like only very important documents.
As regards grammar schools, out of your own experience WASP, how many kids in grammer school uniforms were heading that way from your old neighbourhood? 70% of the neighbourhoods kids? 60%? 40%? How many from your old neighbourhood went on to third level education? Would you have any figures to show the current percentage of working class kids whom attend 3rd level education? Are you happy with NI's current output for the knowledge industry?
Education can be like football. It's all very well having a great youth and reserve system in place, winning trophies and accolades, but how many make it into the full team? How many academics finish third level education and stay to contribute to NI's economy?
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 28, 2008 15:17:45 GMT
No, in the sameway French/German speakers etc shouldn't have the same rights.
No you have missed my point, Ireland-Irish and if Ireland wants to fund the Irish language that is a matter for them.
That is a twisting of what I am saying. Should Polish/German citizens who are fluent in English get the rights to fund the language of the country they claim allegiance to??? Why should there be funding at times like this for people fluent in English to speak in the Irish language when Ireland is not part of the UK? Should Ireland fund any of its citizens who view alliegance to say Scotland and pay for translations etc when these same people are fluent in English or Irish??This is the only difference there is between Scots, Welsh etc, apart from that the money spent on translating these languages should be scrapped.
Hard to do because my main problem with funding these languages and translating these languages is money well wasted and could be put to better use especially under the current climate.
See above.
My view on the Irish language is the same as my view on Ulster scots. Nothing will satsify republicans concerning their position within the UK so that is very much a red herring. But I would not rule out token fundraising for all these languages in the future or even a small token now to help them. When it comes to translating the languages at great cost then no flamin way and I don't care even if it was a Protestant only language, hope you get my point.
Ealr what are the costs of translating everything into Irish especially when everyone speaks English and the majority are not fluent in Irish. There is some Ulster scots phone line and IMHO its a flaim waste of money.
Fuck me Earl I didn't count them but the buses were filled with them. What has that got to do with anything??
Daft questions Earl and rather childish. How on earth could I keep count of everychilds educational success in a large sprawling estate. But from what I know as fact plenty of those attending grammar school went onto Uni including many of my friends.
Hang on to I check my diary, ffs Earl if you can't take my word on my own experience then don't bother dissecting what I have said looking for facts and figures. Working class areas have far more kids than middle class areas, I know kids from both past and present and there were plenty amongst the middle classes who went to secondary and plenty went to grammar. Same for working class areas but obviously they would have a much higher percentage because they have far more kids.
As I said I know plenty who went onto uni, but that is a silly question because I could return with how many Irish people went to uni in the UK and how many stayed to work in Ireland. Silly really.
|
|
|
Post by earl on Oct 28, 2008 16:06:39 GMT
So you would not grant the equivalent rights that Scots and Welsh speakers have to Irish speakers on the grounds that they are foreign??? How is someone born and bred in Antrim, and whose family have always lived there and who have a cultural connection to the place be a foreigner?
No you have missed the point. Irish has been spoken for centuries all over this island. Since NI is in the UK, the Irish language is an indigenous language of the UK. Political boundaries are not the same as cultural or linguistic boundaries. The Irish language doesn't stop a the border and probably 99% of those in NI who speak the language are originally from there.
How is a person born in Warsaw the same as a person born and bred in Armagh? That's the only way your above analogy is going to work. It would appear that you consider anyone who would see themselves as Irish as a foreigner, no matter how many centuries their family could have lived in Ulster. And I've seen official documents down here translated into Chinese and Polish by the way. What does allegiances have to do with languages? Do I have allegiances to England because I speak english? Should England be giving me money for speaking it's language? And Ireland is a part of the UK. The northern bit called 'Northern Ireland' (the clue is in the name).
Fair enough.
I'm not looking for exact figures, just an approximation. If it was a low percentage of kids going to grammar schools, then there is a flaw in the system that's allowing poor kids to fall through. If it is a high percentage, then I'd agree with you on this subject and nothing needs to change.
So if the percentage of kids attending grammar schools was low in the first place, then that's a low percentage of working class kids going to uni. I'm not asking you to keep count. If less than 50% are going to third level education, it would be pretty apparent.
I'm just asking questions WASP. It's got nothing to do with taking anyones word.
So how is NI's knowledge economy then, considering that is the 'first team' of education, using the football analogy.
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 28, 2008 20:13:43 GMT
Earl for starters as I have said funding for all of these languages should be scrapped not just Irish. Someone born in Antrim or anywhere in N.Ireland are far from foreignors. They are British by birth. This is where we differ, no language stops at any border, funding for it does. What about those from Warsaw who have settled here and applied for citizenship or their children were born here?? IF THEY demand funding for Polish it is no different to those wanting funding for Irish. Your words not mine, if someone is born within the UK then they are British regardless of what they class themselves. If I was born in the republic then I am Irish by birth no matter how much I claim to be British. What is the main language spoke by the Polish or the Chinese, not all of them are fluent in English? What is the main language spoke by Irish people as in people from Ireland? Err no. Earl you are getting more and more silly with these daft posts. No Ireland is not part of the UK,a seperate country called N.Ireland is. Who said it was a low percentage of kids attending grammar school? And you last part is plainly ridiculous, there are many people who attended secondary school and went on to the tech or went to nigh class in later years and went to uni. You do not have to goto grammer school to goto uni. No problem asking questions but I don't have the figures of every child in any place I lived and what school the went to. How is any economy at the minute, and not only that our country was plagued with terrorism costing millions and millions of pounds worth of damge, cost thousands of jobs and lost much needed investment. So what the fuck has an economy in a country ravaged by terrorism got to do with its education?? Your comparisons are getting more and more ridiculous, even the best students in the world couldn't build a first class economy when terrorists are ripping the same country apart. How was the Irish economy a while back, your logic means Irelands crap econmy means the Irish are way down the education table because they are thick as fuck ??
|
|
|
Post by earl on Oct 29, 2008 10:27:35 GMT
Would you agree then that any public funding for say OO events should also be pulled? If not why not? Culture is culture.
Indigenous people of a country get preference above blow-in's WASP. You're still comparing apples and oranges. There's a big difference between a native Irish speaker living in Belfast and a Polish person, no matter how long they have lived there and if they have full citizenship or not.
You are correct in what you say if you were born in the ROI, but incorrect about the UK. You'd be British automatically if born in Britain, but you have a choice of nationality in NI. The GFA covers this and whether you accept this or not won't make it any less legal.
It's about culture WASP. Culture is not always practical. Irish is one of the oldest languages in Europe.
So what's the geographical name of the island were NI is situated?
No-one. I said 'IF' the percentage of kids attending grammar schools was low in the first place.
Touché WASP, I take your point. It's over 10 years now since the GFA. The terrorism issue is a thing of the past now. How has NI used that 10 years of peace to attract investment? Speaking from our own experience (which you have touched on above), there's no point in churning out honours students if they are all going to p!ss off and line someone elses pockets.
|
|
|
Post by Shades40 on Oct 29, 2008 12:53:34 GMT
Ever heard of the saying "he who controls the language, controls the argument"
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 29, 2008 19:49:22 GMT
With the current climate I am opposed to funding that costs alot of money for anything that is not a priority, as I said I would not be opposed to token funding of somekind.
We will agree to disagree.
The gfa covers alot of things but that doesn't make them right nor does it make them concrete. Fact is we part of the UK, pay taxes to the UK, under British law etc etc. If you are born in N.I then you are British no matter what agreement says whatever to try and appease people.
And your point is?
The island was Ireland, but since partition this island is made up of 2 countries, N.I and R.O.I
Earl how on earth is terrorism a thing of the past??
There was investment before the last 10 years and there has been investment since. N.I has shown its skilled labour force, it has tried to show we are not meant to have the same easily ignited violence etc etc.
Earl it is everyones right to pursue an education and its everyones right who does so to decide to leave or stay, we just cant take the attitude of whats the point in educating people incase they leave. Many top students have left, many have stayed, many have returned so I don't think N.Ireland is a country of half wits with no educated people around.
|
|
|
Post by Shades40 on Oct 30, 2008 1:46:52 GMT
Nothern Ireland, republic of Ireland, island of Ireland is that not obvious? do you hate everything Irish so much?
|
|
|
Post by earl on Oct 30, 2008 11:19:41 GMT
so what are you disagreeing with? What is your stance? Is it:
1. Indigenous people of a country should not get preference above blow-in's.
2. Irish speakers are not considered indigenous.
Please clarify what you are disagreeing with.
Well, if you don't support democracy or recognise international law, then you could argue that it doesn't make it right. I'm a supporter of democracy, international law and treaties between sovereign governments. The GFA was passed through a democratic vote on both sides of the border and was signed off in an international agreement between the sovereign governments of our respected states. It doesn't matter where you pay your taxes to or what set of laws you abide by (clearly, you are a bit grey when it comes to laws you like, and choose to ignore those you don't like) . Legally, under British and international law, a person born in NI can be a British or Irish citizen, or both. The people they are trying to 'appease' are people who are just like you and who have their own identity. Do you not agree that a person should be free to be the person that they are? You are born British or Irish, you don't choose it.
My point is that we are not robots. Not everything that we do has a practical purpose or need to produce a profit. Culture can be profitable, but often it costs more than it makes.
The geographical name for the island is Ireland. You are getting geographical and political maps all muddled up. There are no state lines on a geographical map.
Come off it WASP. Are you sitting there waiting for round 2, waiting for the PIRA to just start off again?
That's not my point at all.
|
|
|
Post by Wasp on Oct 30, 2008 17:44:21 GMT
Nothern Ireland, republic of Ireland, island of Ireland is that not obvious? do you hate everything Irish so much? Shades please grow up and stop the trying to twist round what I am saying by claiming I hate everything Irish. Anyway give me a list of everything Irish that I hate and I will answer each one honestly.
|
|