Iran

[Blue Angel]

My own feeling about the Falklands War is it was one of Britain's last chances to try (and note that word) to prove it could project large ammounts of force easily as back in the days of Empire. Speaking more than 20 years later it proved they were still an effective military but also that they were no longer a world power, which mind you was something people had begun to realise since WW2 in any case.

[Harry]

Iranians release British sailors

Iranian media said the British crew 'shouted for joy' at the news
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says 15 British naval personnel captured in the Gulf are free to leave.
He repeated Iran's view that the British sailors and marines "invaded" Iranian waters, but said they were being released as a "gift" to Britain.

He said they would be taken to Tehran airport and flown home within hours.

Downing Street welcomed news of the release, while Iranian state media said the British crew members "shouted for joy" on hearing the news.

Television pictures showed the Iranian president smiling and chatting with the crew.

HAVE YOUR SAY
Of course diplomacy worked, it was a diplomatic incident

Colin Campbell, Stockholm, Sweden


Send us your comments
Excerpts: Ahmadinejad speech
He joked to one: "How are you? So you came on a mandatory vacation?"

The Britons were wearing suits, rather than the military uniform and tracksuits they wore in previous pictures. The one female crew member, Faye Turney, wore a blue headscarf with dark pink shirt.

An unidentified crew member said: "I'd like to say that myself and my whole team are very grateful for your forgiveness. I'd like to thank yourself and the Iranian people... Thank you very much, sir."

Mr Ahmadinejad responded in Farsi: "You are welcome."

'Theatrical gesture'

Mr Ahmadinejad announced the decision to release the Britons at a news conference marking Persian New Year.

UK VERSION OF EVENTS
1 Crew boards merchant ship 1.7NM inside Iraqi waters
2 HMS Cornwall was south-east of this, and inside Iraqi waters
3 Iran tells UK that merchant ship was at a different point, still within Iraqi waters
4 After UK points this out, Iran provides alternative position, now within Iranian waters



Both versions in more detail
Dividing lines of Shatt al-Arab

He spoke at length, attacking the West over its policy in the Middle East, and it was more than an hour before he even mentioned the captives issue.

He repeated allegations that the Britons were captured in Iranian waters, and awarded medals to the Iranian commanders responsible for detaining them.

It was all part of the build up to his extraordinary theatrical gesture, says the BBC's diplomatic correspondent James Robbins.

"We have every right to put these people on trial," Mr Ahmadinejad asserted.

"But I want to give them as a present to the British people to say they are all free."


The British government was not even brave enough to tell their people the truth

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"I'm asking Mr Blair to not put these 15 personnel on trial because they admitted they came to Iranian territorial water," he added, referring to taped "confessions" made by the British sailors and marines.

Britain says the 15 were in Iraqi waters under a UN mandate when they were captured nearly two weeks ago. It says the confessions were extracted under duress.

"I ask Mr Blair: Instead of occupying the other countries, I ask Mr Blair to think about the justice, to think about the truth and work for the British people not for himself," Mr Ahmadinejad said.

"Unfortunately the British government was not even brave enough to tell their people the truth, that it made a mistake."

The Iranian leader said no concessions had been made by the British government to secure the releases, but that Britain had pledged "that the incident would not be repeated".

IRANIAN VERSION OF EVENTS
1 Royal Navy crew stray 0.5km inside Iranian waters
2 Iran gives set of co-ordinates to back up their claims
3 According to seized GPS equipment, the Royal Navy crew had previously entered Iranian waters at several other points
4 Iran informs Britain of the position where the crew were seized, inside Iranian waters



Iran's centres of power
'Access' to Iraq detainees

The solution to the crisis - freeing the Britons while rewarding the Iranian commanders of the operation - appears to be a face-saving compromise, says the BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran.

She says speculation is likely to continue over whether it had anything to do with developments in Iraq, where an Iranian envoy has reportedly been given access to five Iranians captured by US forces, and where a kidnapped diplomat was released on Tuesday.

Earlier on Wednesday Syria revealed that it had been mediating between Iran and the UK over the sailors and marines.

A spokesman for Prime Minister Tony Blair said: "We welcome what the president has said about the release of our 15 personnel. We are now establishing exactly what this means in terms of the method and timing of their release."

The family of one of the captives, Royal Marine Adam Sperry, hailed the announcement as "the best present imaginable".

"Whoever has been in the right or wrong, the whole thing has been a political mess, so let's just get them home," said his uncle, Ray Cooper.

[Harry]

setanta said:

15 Sailors and Marines stray into Irans waters and cause a nuts storm. One of them was a woman.
Can anyone guess who was reading the map?

;D ;D ;D Iraqi waters. You not believe our government ;D

[bearhunter]

Or if you ask nicely enough Setanta, I'm sure some of the ladies will oblige....

[Wasp]

Welcome home.

[An Fear Dubh]

I find it strange that members of an Army/Navy that are trained to fight and repel hostile forces. Were so quickly overcome in open seas, did the other force sneak up, before a gun could be cocked? Now I do not beliee they were taken by surprise, so why did they surrender so easily, not one shot was fired even as a warning. This was the British Royal Navy and British Royal Marines, now if memory serves me correctly was it not the British Royal Marines that were also surprise and surrendered without firing a shot in the Falklands. Maybe this is standard British Army training? And once captured whatever happened to their anti-interrogation training? It seems the promise of a meal was enough to break that British Bulldog resolve.
Now I am not saying that this was not a frightening experience for the normal person and under such extreme pressure it is difficult to know how any individual will behave. But these are supposed to be front line troops, and having a lot of personal experience with torture and interrogation these people seem to be totally unprepared, and surrendered too easily and broke under the first hint of duress.
I think this is more a reflection on the lack of training rather than on the individuals themselves.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not saying that they did not make the right choice. But if I was a British Royal Marine General, I would be seriously worried that front line assualt troops were overcome so easily without a bid to escape and without some sort of skirmish.
And once captured, read prepared statements without visible signs of any major force being used on them and even after their release it is a tale of mind games not physical torture. I wish more of my sessions had been simply mind games.

[Harry]

They were in Iraqi waters, not even in the disputed part of the waters so less precaution was taken as they shouldn't of encountered any Iranian forces and as we are not at War with Iran the ROE will affect exactly how a soldier can respond to different types of challenges.

British ROE are very strict and force can only be used when you have no other option. If the Iranians had of been a few boat loads of Iraqi insurgents then i can assure you the response would of been much different. Faced with troops from another soverign nation that you are technically not at war with they would not of been able to use any force unless they were attcked first.

It also must be pointed out that this was not a boat load of British special forces but a mixture of marines and normal sailors who have recieved training in boarding operations to check for smugglers etc. They were not all frontline troops as you have said and most of these sailors will not of been trained for this type of situation.

Not all the British military receive interrogation training. Only specail forces and their counterparts, pilots etc recieve in depth training on this matter and most others get the basics on the scenario of what to do. This was a strange circumstance these people were faced with and as such its hard to judge their actions.

[An Fear Dubh]

Some of that is valid, and although I accept they were not all frontline troops, they were on the frontline, so perhaps those that were not trained should not have been put into that senerio.

And while I accept a lot of what you say, you must know that the points I highlighted are ones that have been aired in the British press and such questions are coming from Tory party members.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

Some of that is valid, and although I accept they were not all frontline troops, they were on the frontline, so perhaps those that were not trained should not have been put into that senerio.

And while I accept a lot of what you say, you must know that the points I highlighted are ones that have been aired in the British press and such questions are coming from Tory party members.

Yes fair point but aired by people with no idea of military training or what is needed for military training. The British armed forces are asked to do a massive job on a shoestring budget. To train all personnel to the standards your talking about would take so much money, money that the government won't spend.

So you have a good point about training actually in terms of the ordinary sailors.

[An Fear Dubh]

I still have doubts about marines that seemed only too willing to read prepared statements and point at maps. When anybody who watches the movies could tell you the response should be - name, rank and serial number only.

The image that we have been left with over this is the propaganda victory that Iran has scored over this. Iran easily captured British marines. They did not use physical violence on them, they did not degrade them, and they fed and clothed them each person got a new suit.

Now compare that to people captured by British and American troops. The five Iranians captured by Americans have not been seen, nobody knows where there are and no one has been allowed access to them. Not even red-cross of or independant bodies. And when we do get pictures of captives, what do we get? We get men in orange jumpsuits heavily chained. We get pictures of naked men built into pyramids and attacked by dogs. We have stories of various methods of torture, and we really do not know what is going on in these clandestine prisons.

I will leave the play on the women's role out of it as that is not fully understood in the West (and I do not mean West Belfast).

[Harry]

Lets not compare IRA men with Sailors carrying out a job under the full authority of the UN.

AFD your not comparing like with like. You are merely using incomparable scenarios to have a pop at British and American foreign policy.

[Wasp]

I agree Harry, these ira volunteers who had 'accusations' shouted at them were probably only out helping old ladies across the road when the big bad Brits got them and kicked the crap out of them. If they were ira volunteers then I am sure some of the accusations were true unless they joined up but done absolutely nothing in fighting for Ireland. At least these volunteers lived to tell the tale, unlike those the ira volunteers themselves lifted, most of them are 6 foot under after being tortured and executed.

What a comparison, what a joke, especially from people who were part of an organisation that deliberately targeted people who were unarmed and defenceless. lol

[An Fear Dubh]

Were you aware Harry that 5 Iranians were being held by Americans 'incommunicado' until the British Marines were caught at sea? Because I know I was not aware of them being held, until it was mentioned as a possible reason for the capture of the British Marines. So why the veil of silence by the Western news media on this arrest?

I do not know about comparing like with like, it is hard to get an exact comparison. But I think captured prisoners sitting about playing chess and clean clothes and no voiced objections in Iran. And compared to captured prisoner either kept 'incommunicado' or in Orange jumpsuits and heavily chained are two very different images of the same thing, captured prisoners.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

Were you aware Harry that 5 Iranians were being held by Americans 'incommunicado' until the British Marines were caught at sea? Because I know I was not aware of them being held, until it was mentioned as a possible reason for the capture of the British Marines. So why the veil of silence by the Western news media on this arrest?

I do not know about comparing like with like, it is hard to get an exact comparison. But I think captured prisoners sitting about playing chess and clean clothes and no voiced objections in Iran. And compared to captured prisoner either kept 'incommunicado' or in Orange jumpsuits and heavily chained are two very different images of the same thing, captured prisoners.

I was well aware of the five Iranians caught in Iraq. They were members of the Revolutionary Guard. As you will be well aware there is deep suspisions that the Iranians are helping in the targetting of coalition troops by providing funds and the technology to make more and more sosphisticated devices.

These Iranian 'diplomats' as their own country calls them had no mandate to be where they were and were rightfully arrested. If they were helping Iraqi insurgents then they should be shown no mercy.

Obviously the Iranian propaganda worked well on you buddy, something i find quite surprising as you are an intelligent bloke and i didn't believe you would swallow that nonsense. It seems a case that your enemys enemy is your friend??